Custom Gradient Banding - Ugly

Hello All

I have recently generated some backgrounds using FCP 4.5 builtin custom gradient. On my NTSC monitor I notice a lot of banding, not smooth at all, as the image goes from one color to the other color.
I have even output from photoshop the same kind of gradient as a .psd still and as a .tiff still, the banding remains. I have added gaussian blur and other blurs but no help.
I am monitoring via SVideo connector from my DSR20. The image in the canvas however does not show such bad artifacts.
Any ideas on how to smooth out the color gradient?

G5dual2.0 2.5Ram, SATA raid

thanks for any help

rockin ron

Well, Rockin Ron, 10 bit processing exists for a reason, right? Banding occurs when the color space isn't wide enough to accomodate the intermediate shades.

Just to make sure, both FCP and Photoshop gradients have "dither" options to help with banding, do you have that turned on?

The theory says that banding happens with 8 bit codecs for the reason explained before, but the practical truth is that some 8 bit codecs are better than others in this regard. The DV25 codec found in DVCAM/MiniDV/DVCPRO one of the worse, unfortunately. I have seen "good" 8 bit codecs behave better in this area that some 10 bit codecs. Pointing out the "good" 8 bit codecs won't help here because your workflow is DV.

If you turn on HDR processing in your sequence settings, the banding will be probably lower but you will also have much less RT power. If you find that HDR helps, one thing you coud do is turn it on when you finish the project and render the segments that need it (because of the lowered RT capabilities)

There is a compromise solution: "breaking" the softness of the gradient with a very subtle monochrome noise pattern (in Photoshop, for example). Motion, for example, has a filter to reduce banding. I imagine it works in a similar way to the method I mentioned.

The bottom line is DV25 is rather poor for graphics oriented projects. Even DV50, which has 4:2:2 color sampling and all, is pretty awful with banding artifacts.



Adolfo Rozenfeld
Buenos Aires - Argentina
www.adolforozenfeld.com

Thanks for info Adolfo.

It sounds like I should look for another option as a neutral background for my project

rockin ron

<<<It sounds like I should look for another option as a neutral background for my project>>>

You never tell us the quality setting of your work. Is the project in DV? The DV service has much less color quality than SDI or uncompressed.

That 4:2:2 quality that Adolpho is talkling about is based on an uncompressed timeline. DV color quality is half that or worse.

Koz

Greg:
He did indirectly say he's using DV, because he mentioned a DVCAM deck as his monitoring/capture device.

"That 4:2:2 quality that Adolpho is talkling about is based on an uncompressed timeline. DV color quality is half that or worse".

Although uncompressed is 4:2:2 of course, there are compressed codecs that work with 4:2:2 color sampling too (most of them, actually. DV25 and HDV/MPEG-2 are exceptions). But most 8 bit codecs, including Apple Uncompressed 8 bit, will show banding in some circumstances.



Adolfo Rozenfeld
Buenos Aires - Argentina
www.adolforozenfeld.com

Followup

Indeed I am working in DV, actually originated with the Sony Z1U in HDV. I down-converted it on capture for somplicity and because delivery is on DVD, but I might recapture in HDV and conform.

I will try taking one of the timelines and change the sequence settings to other settings to see how the banding looks.

thanks for the help and advise

rockin ron

Ron,
Other compressors won't help you if you are mastering to DV. If you are going straight to DVD, you can use a higher compressor I believe.

Best,
Kevin Monahan
Author, "Motion Graphics and Effects in Final Cut Pro"
Last Chance to Sign Up for My FCP FX Seminar, coming to LA this Weekend!

Hello, Kevin!
If he's mastering to DV other codecs won't help, that's true. But enabling HDR processing will. It really reduces banding significatively.
Yes, if he's going to DVD using another codec might help. I really like options like Sheer and Microcosm, two (commercial) uncompressed Quicktime codecs, that produce stunning 10/16 bpc files with half or less the data rate of ordinary uncompressed codecs!



Adolfo Rozenfeld
Buenos Aires - Argentina
www.adolforozenfeld.com

16 bit is the way to go. Matt Silverman at Phoenix Editorial in SF did this wonderful gradient boxes comp in AE. Cameras fly around as lights shine through them. Zero banding, baby!

Microcosm was used to render, of course. Matt is one of the designers of Microcosm.

Cheers,
Kevin Monahan
Author, "Motion Graphics and Effects in Final Cut Pro"
My FCP FX Seminar is in LA this weekend. Sign up Today!

Hey, Kevin.
Microcosm is nothing short of amazing in terms of quality and weight reduction, but it's rather on the slow side to decode. I use is more as digital cold storage than anything else, since playing it back in real time is really hard!

Sheer has progressed a lot and in fact is even faster to decode than Apple Uncompressed! It can be used today to capture and edit in Final Cut Pro, and the developers said that minor changes to FCP codec handling would allow RT Extreme support with lots and lots of strems! It would be fantastic if Apple just licensed Sheer for use in FCP. Better quality than Apple uncompressed, half the data rate, 8 and 10 bit and even supports alpha channels in YUV space!

Micrcosom is more efficient at data rate reduction, while Sheer is more practical for playback.

BTW, Matt Silverman also designed "Color Theory", a fantastic application that helps in the development of color schemes and combination of color in general. Terrific!

All the best,
Adolfo



Adolfo Rozenfeld
Buenos Aires - Argentina
www.adolforozenfeld.com

Shhhh....Color Theory is my secret weapon! ;-)

I think he does all the intermediary rendering in Microcosm, but uses something else for output. I'll try and find out.

I've heard Sheer is indeed cool. I've met Andreas before too. Cool guy.

Kevin Monahan
Author, "Motion Graphics and Effects in FCP"
Take My FCP FX Seminar in LA THIS weekend!