help with output for PAL standards conversion

hi -

i'm having a bit of trouble outputting a PAL DV tape. i'm editing a documentary project in NTSC that includes a few sequences of material shot on PAL. for all the rough cuts, we've just thrown the PAL clips into the timeline and rendered - the motion looks terrible, but good enough to decide which material we want to use for the final version.

now we are getting close to picture locking and have made final decisions about the PAL footage, so i want to get a proper conversion made (i did try the natress standards conversion filter, but there are a few whip pans and sudden camera moves where the motion still looks stuttery). so we're just going to take it to a post house for a professional NTSC conversion. so, instead of going back to the original footage, i've just made a new PAL timeline and put in exactly the edited PAL sequences we need for the project. so far so good.

but i'm having a lot of trouble outputting PAL to my DSR-25 (i've never tried before) - in theory, since the deck can switch between PAL and NTSC i should be able to record to a PAL tape and use that for the conversion, right? i switched the easy setup to PAL, checked all the video / audio settings to make sure they are also PAL, and flipped the switch on the DSR-25 deck to PAL. but the output is sped up and pixel-blocky and messed up. any ideas what i am doing wrong?

(and on a related note - will the duration of my sequences change at all after conversion due to the frame rate difference, or will i be able to paste everything back into the main NTSC sequence without any changes)

thanks - i hope someone can help!

irene

Are you watching this on an NTSC monitor?

no, my monitor has settings to play back both PAL and NTSC, and anyhow i'm mainly using the built-in monitor in the deck to check (plus headphone connected to the deck, where the sound is sped up and garbled).

Are you feeding any of this equipment a black burst signal?

no, should i be? when i output NTSC via firewire from FCP to deck it is very simple - i just play from the timeline and hit record on the deck. i assumed the process was the same for PAL with new settings.

cant help with the deck, sorry,
but you shouldn't need a black burst signal for a simple transfer to tape.
i never have with my DSR11.
try the simple things like turning everything off, then on again,
if you haven't already.
pretty sure you have to do this with the DSR11.

I would suggest that you give yourself a few frames of handle/s on the top and tails of your PAL segments, just to be safe.
you wouldn't want to get caught short.

also, i'm not sure how much better the hardware converter will be.

another approach, if the segments aren't too long is to use compressor, with everything set to best quality.

it's supposed to be tiny bit better then graeme's plug, in, but it takes an awful lot longer (32 times according to Graeme!)

cheers,
nick

Black Burst helps with playback, not record.

Did you convert everything to NTSC before you cut with it?

<<<(plus headphone connected to the deck, where the sound is sped up and garbled).>>>


If you have bad sound, then the system thinks you want to do a speed change instead of a standards conversion.

The way Nattress does it, there is no show duration change.

Only the super high end standards converters do motion tracking/compensation. You know when you hire one of those because the bill makes you gasp. Everybody else gets as close as possible and if you're looking really hard, you can find the errors--typically very fine detail and rapid motion.

You are converting between a fuzzy but good-motion television system to one that has good picture but bad motion. That's really hard to do well.

If you are successful with a Nattress conversion, you should *almost* not be able to tell what you did and it should play hot from the timeline into a monitor and the monitor message (on the Sonys) should switch to "PAL."

If you have any other combination, you probably missed a step or tried to cut the work out of order. Nattress will correct me, but I don't think you can convert a mixed timeline.

Koz

no, i haven't converted at all! that's the whole point.

fcp will "render" a PAL clip dropped in an NTSC sequence so it plays in the timeline, but it's not a proper conversion.

but the point is i don't want to do the standards conversion in the computer at all. i just want to output a PAL sequence to a PAL tape and get the conversion done outside. it plays just fine in the PAL timeline on my coomputer, but i can't get the deck to cooperate - it's the deck and monitor that show the messed up image and sound, not the computer. and, yes, i know a proper conversion is expenive, but that's the kind we need to get, because there are fast camera movements (and it's only 12 minutes of footage, so not too much).

3 things to try

Your first option is to double check your Sequence Settings are:

Frame Size: 720x576 CCIR 601 / DV PAL (5:4)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: PAL - CCIR 601 (720 x 576) [Tick Anamorphic if you need it]
Field Dominance: Lower (Even)
Editing Timebase: 25
Quicktime Video Settings: DV - PAL 100%
Audio Settings: 48kHz 16bit Stereo

Then really important bit! You need to make sure that you select from the "view menu"

View>Video Playback> Apple Firewire PAL (720x576)

Then

View>Audio Playback> Audio follows Video

Then

View>Refresh A/V Devices

Then

View>External Video>All Frames

As long as the DSR-25 is in PAL mode you should be able to play out the sequence.




Converting Clips:

Before cutting you really should standards convert the NTSC clips using compressor - Better still use After Effects (make sure frame blending is on and stretchtime so that it ends up the same length) or Cleaner 6 is a another program the does a good job.

I guess you'll need to go to all NTSC then to PAL so convert those clips first then you could run the whole sequence through NTSC to PAL.

You could try exporting a Quicktime movie from the Timeline in a PAL format DV then reimporting it to a new sequence - I have tried the reverse just now ie DV to NTSC - there is no time change but the motion occasionally jumps and the cuts sometimes have black frames. Not great but a quick fix.

Remember to Export the audio separately as an 48kHz AIFF so that the time is the same as the original NTSC DV audio.


I hope this helps


Ben



Post Edited (12-15-05 03:00)



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> I've just made a new PAL timeline and put in exactly the edited PAL
> sequences we need for the project

Just a suggestion:

Looking at the process you described, I might suggest that the problem could stem from the fact that you edited those PAL clips in an NTSC timeline to begin with. When you put those PAL sequences onto a PAL timeline, you probably copied them from the NTSC timeline? If so, perhaps those clips may still carry the conversion problems of the NTSC timeline. I know that clips from a timeline often "remember" the properties of the old timeline, even when copied onto a new timeline (along the lines of what Koz said about mixing standards in one timeline).

Have you tried cutting some of those PAL pieces afresh into a PAL timeline -- ie. using Match Frame, or even calling them from the bins in pure PAL mode? Without the meddling of the NTSC timeline, perhaps that would improve your chances. Try the Nattress Standards Conversion then (since you paid for it already), because most people on here are happy with that. Try outputting just one of those whip-pan clips and see if you get better results.

no, actually i didn't copy the clips from the NTSC timeline. i did try to do that at first, but immediately noticed that the clips were getting out of sync and generally acting crazy, so i figured out right away that i had to recut the sequences from the original source footage. so... that's not the problem!

and as previously explained i did try the trial download of nattress, and, like i said, it didn't look good enough for documentary footage wth whip pans and fast camera moves.

<<<instead of going back to the original footage, i've just made a new PAL timeline and put in exactly the edited PAL sequences we need for the project. >>>

That's from your post. If you didn't go back to the original footage, where did those clips come from and where did you get the edited PAL sequences?

Koz

sorry about confusing wording - i mean "master tapes" when i say i'm not going back to my original footage. rather than converting entire PAL tapes, i am digitizing to FCP editing the clips i need, and then converting that. i'm just describing a workflow - the footage orginated on PAL tapes that i don't want to go back to.

hope that clears it up. and... still having the same problem though i've tried all the suggestions so far.

okay, problem solved.

if anyone is interested - apparently fcp hates switching back and forth between PAL and NTSC. switching to PAL easy setup, saving my project, then quitting and restarting with the deck in PAL mode seems to have done the trick...

Doesn't surprise me. iDVD has troubles doing that, too. It starts giving you PAL movies on an NTSC DVD.

In one case we had to trash the iDVD preferences to get it to be stable again.

<<<okay, problem solved.>>>

Sometimes we're only helpful by changing your thinking slightly or suggesting alternative troubleshooting processes.

That can work, too.

I'm happy you're back up.

Koz

And it's not unheard-of for us to miss obvious solutions...restarts are so second nature that we sometimes plain forget to mention them.

Interesting, I don't seem to have the same trouble.

The only thing I have encountered albeit with the DSR-11, is the failure to recognise the deck at all in which case try unplugging the FireWire to your deck and then pluggin it back in then View>Refresh A/V Devices.

Glad you got it working though!

Have a Merry Christmas peeps



Post Edited (12-16-05 10:21)



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