Audio setup: amp vs. mixer

Quick poll: what's the first device in your audio chain?

I'm having a "discussion" with a friend who's an audio geek and he's trying to convince me that I want to run my analog audio (coming out of my DSR-11) into an amp and then to unpowered studio monitors. But all I've seen mentioned on the boards is a mixer hooked up to a pair of near-field studio speakers (like the M-Audios) which are powered.

Which one is correct? Or is the mixer the cheap solution, and the amp is akin to putting on the big boy pants??

unles your amp has mulitple / switchable inputs,
a mixer is an essentail part of the cahin.

nick

they are both right. just different means to the same end. i think your idea of going clean to a mixer is the better choice...

I wonder whether running your signal through an amplifier will give you a false sense of loudness. It seems to me when I'm mixing audio, I want to hear the sound as untampered-with as possible, warts and all.

<<<It seems to me when I'm mixing audio, I want to hear the sound as untampered-with as possible, warts and all.>>>

Pretty much. That's a common misconception. It's the job of the monitors to be perfect and make the sound/picture as *bad* as possible so you can catch the errors *before* the client sees/hears them.

The client projection system is where you want to hide as many problems as possible.

Koz

well, you need an amp somewehre in there...

unless you;re listeng with headphones, and that's not much good.

here's a common set up:

deck/card into mixer
mac out-put also into mixer

mixer into amp

amp into speakers.

a powered monitor doest change this picture at all, it;s just that the amp is built into the speaker cabinet.

and a powered mixer does the same thing.

powered mixers generaly would be too bulky for me.
i'd rather my mixer was quite small and didn't take up too much desk space.

nick

The headphone debate is an interesting one...sure, your perspective is different when listening to headphones, but at the same time, I find it a useful tool for catching details like extremely low background noise (eg. the director's voice, crew rustlings). Plus you can blot out noises in your own environment (unless you have a soundproofed studio, which I don't).

Probably the best methods and tools are a combination of methods and tools.

<<<Probably the best methods and tools are a combination of methods and tools.>>>

That brings up an engineering joke. Every time production complains about either room noise or an edit session being too loud, engineering sends over headphones.

The joke is this solution hasn't worked since 1946, but engineering does it anyway. Like hitting your knee with a small rubber hammer. Some things never change.

We will very shortly get dipped into this problem big time. We have two edit suites in the same room and the only reason we got away with it is they do very different jobs at different times. That will shortly change when both machines get upgraded to the same level.

"Can you turn that !@#$% thing down, I'm trying to listen to this cut."

I can't wait.

Koz

agree headphones are great for details,
not so great for mixing more than one track.

i guess i should have said
"unless you;re listeng *exclusivley* with headphones, and that's not much good."

Koz:
"We have two edit suites in the same room"

that's how i work when i;ve got an assistant.
i;'d rather be in the same room, (good for the team spirit)
and i do use headphones then, too.
it certainly helps to keep me focused.
i ALSO like to play the audio out my speakers at the same time, so they know what i;m doing, plus it does sound better for me.

im most likely assembling, not mixing, at this stage.

so headphones great for detail, and for focus.
although i think a new wall would be better in this case.

(also im surprised koz didnt point out that even with headphones there's got to be SOME amplification...)

nick

This is all very good, thanks for the advice. Appreciate your setup notes Nick.

Now the audiophile in me says you want to adjust volume after the amp, meaning you want to put the mixer after the amp to adjust volume to the unpowered monitors. That's how a DJ would do it anyway, line out > amp > mixer > speakers.

If I get two powered monitors with their own volume knob I don't necessarily need a mixer, just plug 'em into my DSR-11 and go. But then I want to hook a VCR into the system so I'm back to the mixer, only now I'm not getting a clean line out of the DSR-11 anymore, I'm introducing potential noise and I have to make sure I monitor the levels going out to the analog deck now.

In a perfect world, how do you all split up the inputs and outputs to various decks? Patch panels right??

My head hurts already... sorry I even brought all this up!

none of the DJs i know work like that.

i've worked in a few clubs here in sydney.
they're all set up pretty much the same.
turntables + CDs directly into the mixer, mixer into the amp, amp into house speakers, with an aditional monitoring feed from the mixer into a powered speaker for the DJs.

im happy enough with my tiny behringer mixer,
but if i wanted a super clean signal, i;d pull out my mackie 1402.

so there's my advice, get a mackie mixer.

you dont have to do that.
you could hook the vcr up to the DSR11, and switch the DSR to analogue input when you want to monitor the VCR,
but i really see no problems going thru a good mixer.

cheers,
nick

"Now the audiophile in me says you want to adjust volume after the amp, meaning you want to put the mixer after the amp to adjust volume to the unpowered monitors. That's how a DJ would do it anyway, line out > amp > mixer > speakers."

You would NOT want to do this. It would damage your mixer and amp.

John K:

Gyuri is correct. DO NOT use the signal path you outlined, at the risk of some fried output transformers.

Speakers are last in the chain.
Sources>Mixer/Processors>Amps>Speakers

Either solution (re: back in your first post) will work fine. I would recommend a nice line mixer with mutes (specifically a Behringer RX1602- nothing to screw up! Not crazy about the company, but the product is nice), but most edit bays I've been in lately have had a Mackie 1604VLZ or something similar. Depending on taste and what's available, you could use an amp>speakers, or just powered monitors. Really depends on your needs: sources like decks, mics, phones, etcetera.

Unless you are mixing final product, I'd sublimate your inner audiofile and keep things as simple and clean as possible- no patch bays... no outboard gear...no console EQ...minimum routing you can get by with...

tc

Thanks tc! And thanks to Gyuri, Nick and the rest of you for all your help with this. I've got a clear picture of what I need now (and why).

JK