HiDef Storage Upgrade Questions - Sorry Long Post

Hi guys,

Even though I wasn't planning on taking the HD leap for some time, a job has come along that requires HD edit and output for broadcast, and I've been asked to research and come up with the best value solution for a system upgrade to HD capable editing.

However, there are a lot of things surrounding HD that have me confused or at least lost as I'm doing my research so any insight would be greatly appreciated.

First of all, I don't really know in which flavor of HD the program will be shot. I seem to remember hearing that there are something like 18 different HD recording formats, so as far as storage and throughput are concerned I want to hedge my bets.

Budget is not a huge concern as I won't be spending to do the upgrade, but I'd like to keep it under $15,000 if possible. This might require some "outside the box" workflow since I don't have an HD monitor, but I still think it'll be possible. Essentially, I'd like to get what I can now, and then upgrade further (to things like an HD Monitor) as I go along.

My current system is: G4 Dual 1.25 gHz with 400GB ATA storage, NTSC monitor, 20" Cinema Display, FCP 4.5. I'll for sure be getting a new G5 and FCP 5.0

STORAGE: The storage solutions I've looked at include: Promax SATAMAXe-HD, HUGE MediaVault 4110, XServe RAID. According to what I've read HD needs sustained read write of apprx 160MB/s. All these give me that, but the Promax seems on the slow end and is a SATA as opposed to the fibre channel solutions of the other two.

The XServe says it gets around 400MB/sec. Does that mean it can handle multiple streams of HD uncompressed? Where does that leave the Promax? Are there other storage options I'm not aware of?

CAPTURE CARDS: On the HUGE site I looked at their benchmarks with the Kona2 and Decklink HD cards. Now the Decklink is cheaper, but the benchmark results were disturbing to me. I don't know if I understand quite how to read them, but it looks as if the Decklink falls far below 160MB/s with larger resolutions/frame rates. The Kona on the other hand looks far superior in the read/write speeds. I would appreciate any expertise on this. Here are the links to the two benchmarks:

Kona2:
[www.hugesystems.com]

Decklink-HD:
[www.hugesystems.com]

HD INJEST: Aside from the storage issues, I have to consider the monitoring and input. For now, I suspect we'll be renting the equipment for injest, or perhaps they'll be put on drives. I don't really know. What's SOP usually for HD workflows?

MONITORING: I suppose I could get a Cinema display to monitor the HD, but how well does that work? Is it the best cost effective solution? In case I can't get a monitor for HD, what would be the best workflow to offline/online. Would I use a SD uncompressed offline mode and then re-batch in uncompressed HD once the edit is locked down?

Again I appologize for such a long post, but this is exactly the reason I wasn't planning on going forward with HD for awhile. I was happy in my SD world. Any help you can offer is EXTREMELY appreciated.

Andy

Andy,

To do real uncompressed HD (not HDV) you will need a G5 with PCI-X or PCIe slots to accept an HD capable capture card/box to be able to capture and uncompress the content into your MAC. Then you would need some RAID system that can handle at least one stream of HD at a time. For HD, A FiberChannel 4 GB/sec RAID is preferrable. The 4 or 8 SATA drive RAID 0 can get up to 50 GB/sec per channel but there are downsides to unprotected RAID 0.

As far as HD monitoring - The Decklink HD at $695 allows full pixel resolution of 1080 but it needs to eiher be driven by the SDI output of a capture card or an HD deck.

If you want to buld up your new G5 (dualcore and PCIe) system to handle most anything you can throw at it - the new (and soon to ship) Decklink Multibridge can handle an format uncompressed analog SD or SDI SD or analog HD or SDI HD and can down and up convert one to the other.

Many things to consider!

In the BMD disk test, those numbers are Frames per second, not MB/s. You can't directly compare both the AJA test and the BMD test as they're different test apps, but they both work great.

Graeme



[www.nattress.com] - Plugins for FCP-X

Thanks Graeme. That helps a lot. I was hoping I was reading it wrong. I have a better relationship with Blackmagic than Aja (having been burned with Aja once before), and the decklink card is more affordable.

John, the newest G5s come with PCIe slots right? How many? Since I'm building this from the ground up, I don't expect they'll be used for anything else besides HD capture.

Which reminded me of another question. If I go the fibre channel route, do I need some sort of fibre channel card in the G5, or does it come with one? On the HUGE site, they made it seem like you just by their drive and plug it in to your fibre channel plug on the back of your computer, but they may have just been assuming that I would have already obtained that part.

I'm certainly leaning towards a RAID 3 configuration (although I confess I'm not all that versed in RAID configs) which seems to be more protection over the RAID 0 which I DO understand leaves me vulnerable to drive failure. At HD file sizes, I'll need a sizeable RAID and I know that the larger the RAID 0, the more likely of a failure due to the number of drives.

Andy

Andy,

Stock "out of the box" g-5's do NOT come with a fibre channel connection. You have to buy it as an extra. Apple makes a good one for around $500.

Mark

Andy,

As you, I have similar questions about the HD leap. However, I discovered a video monitor/Computer Monitor you should at least investigate. When I tell you the name is Westinghouse, you will probably laugh but I compared the 27 inch flat screen specs to the Apple 23 inch display. The refresh rate is the same and the resolution on the Westinghouse is awsome.

The Westinghouse gives you the ability to switch between the computer (DVI or VGA) and video source. It is HD ready as well. The model I bought was the LTV27w2. There is a LTV-2w6 has is even better in specs

Apple 23 inch $1699
WH 27 inch Video monitor/Computer monitor $799

www.westinghouse.com see LCD Monitors.

The video output looks as good to me as the the Sony/Panasonic/Sharp flat screens. I think Sharp may actually make this screen. I bouht three of these to use at trade shows and for video editing. The image quality is excellent for half the price. and the resolution looks just fine. Hope this helps. It is at least worth checking out.

"Apple 23 inch $1699"

Actually it is NOW $1299. Then again who or what is westinghouse? We al know what it used to be , but what or who is it now?????

I agree. Westinghouse is not a name I would have considered until I looked at the specs and also loooked at the image for myself. The Apple display has it beat in resolution (optimal) but to my eye, the wesinghouse 27inch is actually easier on the eyes and I like the larger image. Because it has a dual function HD monitor/DVI computer, it offers a great value if money and desktop space are a consideration. I use to have my monitor and computer screen. Just the Westinghouse now. I would invite anyone who is skeptical, as I was, to go and see one of these perform. They are using a faroudja chip found in high end LCD monitors. All I can advise you is see it for yourself.

Sorry if this sounds like an ad for Westinghouse. I was just blown away with the quality and value.

That's interesting Rob. I'll have to have my chief engineer take a look at them. If it holds up, that would be a real value. I'm certainly aware of how the Cinema Display holds up. I love my 20".

I just got an LG flat panel that does TV/DVI computer monitoring. It's really cool.

Dell 2405 24"LCD is better than the Apple 23...

www.barefeats.com/lcd.html

For uncompressed HD, you need an external RAID array capable of over 200mb/sec of sustained read/write. Fibrechannel such as XServe or Medea...Ultra SCSI 2 like the HUGE Systems array, or several external SATA options.

Are you going to be finishing and Color Correcting? Then an HD monitor designed for this is warranted.

It's essentially a live to tape switched camera shoot with ISOs in case they mess it up. I'll be cleaning up the switched portion and adding broll (in SD format) to the HD. There is the potential for color correcting. I'm glad there are good value options out there for monitors.

As far as the read/write speeds...if I go with the minimum, say an SATA that gives me 160 - 200MB/sec, how limited will I be in the editing phase? Particularly considering that I may be multi-clip editing?

Andy

Shane, now that I've got both a CRT HD monitor and LCD HD monitor in house, I'll try and do some comparative testings, in terms of colour / brightness / suitability for colour correction etc.

Graeme



[www.nattress.com] - Plugins for FCP-X

Graeme....I just had a film colorist look at my setup (happens to be a good friend too, our kids are best friends) and he looked at the color representation on my Dell using Digital Cinema Preview of the DVCPRO HD footage. He said that the color bars looked "fine." The Blacks were black, the Whites were white...Blue looked as blue as it should...he was quite impressed.

He said it would be a fine idea to do all the prelim CC using what I have, with a day or two of "tweaking" on a professional HD monitor with a waveform/vectors scope.

Andy...with a drive array that plays between 160-20mb/sec then you will be limited to 8-bit uncompressed HD. 10-bit uncompressed requires 200mb/sec sustained read/write for 1 stream of video. more streams require more transfer speed.

I'd certainly agree Shane. There's nothing bad that I've seen on my LCD that looked in any way majorly different from CRT. Indeed, BMD claim they had a colourist in, and he set up their HDLink box so that he'd be happy doing his CC work on the LCD, but then again, they sell those boxes, but I don't think it's very far from the truth that a well calibrated LCD is absolutely fine for CC.

Graeme



[www.nattress.com] - Plugins for FCP-X

Thanks Shane, Thanks everyone. There's a wealth of info on this thread. I'm not gonna lose it.

Andy