Timecode

Why oh why did FCP decide to not have the software send out timecode to tape decks? In a broadcast television market, and especially overseas, most all stations demand the program start exactly at the one hour timecode mark.
When I checked out the Apples site, an article was posted that said the earlier version 4 did send time code out. The work around they suggested, was to pre stripe your tape and then do an insert edit at the one hour mark.
I can't imagine of all the wonderful tricks built into FCP, that sending out timecode would be a real brain buster, especially if the program has already been written.
Is there a card or another way to get it to send out the code? Would having a million FCP user group march at Cupertino do any good?

Thank you

Bill Darst

Sending out TC to tape in your instance would be a really bad idea. The broadcaster is going to hate you, and the engineer dealing with it is going to damn you and your offspring for generations.

If you punch into a tape at one hour coming off the software there will most likely be a discontinuity in the timecode, a sudden jump that is going to make the tape very hard to deal with. (Like try capturing or cueing up with a timecode break.)

You're better off doing it the traditional way, striping the tape beginning at 58:00:00, adding in bars tone, slate, countdown, whatever, and editing in the program at the top of the hour. Much cleaner, much better, you will be loved and cherished and so will your children.



All the best,

Tom

Hi Tom. .

Thanks for your reply. . this posting thing really works.

Just to make sure we are on the same timecode track. . I'm not talking about creating a channel 2 audio timecode. The stations we send our programs to around the world will not, I say again will not even accept a tape without the program starting on the 1 hr mark. So we have to tell those who make our dubs to do it before it is sent it out. So why would stations have a problem with timecode in the timecode track?

Thanks again

bill

I'm not talking about audio TC either. Forget that.

OK, let's say you want to put your program on tape. You're going to edit it onto the tape. You want the program to begin at 1:00:00:00. You black a bit of the tape, maybe add in some bars and tone, whatever. You then edit on your program taking the TC off the timeline which begins at 1:00:00:00 like it's supposed to. Unless you edit onto the frame after 00:59:29 (assuming NTSC), you're not going to be editing in continuous TC. There's going to be a sudden break in the TC from maybe oh 00:00:42:22 to one hour. The broadcaster puts it in a machine and wants to cue it for air and let's say he needs three seconds pre-roll. He dials in 1:00:00:00. It cues up to that. It backs up three seconds, and now the deck is at 00:00:39:22, and the deck, being a stupid machine says, whoa there nelly I need to fast forward. It then shoots off past the one hour mark and repeats the process, until it tries a bunch a times, usually three and then gives up and flashes timecode error and stops. Let's say the broadcaster is going to put it onto hard drive to air off that. Same problem. He has to capture off the tape. TC error. Can't capture.



All the best,

Tom

FWIW, there are no NLE's that send the sequence TC out,
they all work by controlling the edit deck, and editing the program in at your specified point.
or so i read, in a post from Philip Hodgetts, and he'd know.

the current workaround (for DV only) is to use Simple Video Out
[developer.apple.com]
it will play a clips TC out via FW along with the video and audio signals

export your timeline.
close FCP.
open export in SVO
set record TC to external on your deck.
hit record,
start SVO playing.

you need to include Bars, Tone, etc, etc in the export.
AND a decent amount of Black on the end.
(it'll stop dead at the end of the file)


cheers,
nick

FWIW, there are no NLE's that send the sequence TC out,
they all work by controlling the edit deck, and editing the program in at your specified point.
I know that is the case with Avid for sure. I've done it the way Tom describes in FCP since FCP 1.0.

The bigger problem for budget producers is the fact that cheap DV decks cannot black and code a tape. You gotta spend pro money for pro features.



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Nick is right...no NLE send out timecode. What they do is control the deck and you tell the deck where to start recording. BUT...this is all by controllingthe deck via RS-422 or RS-232. You cannot get locked timecode out via firewire because it isn't stable enough for that.

The fact that it was able to send timecode out to the DSR-11 was a fluke. One that they "fixed" when 4.5 came out. But there is a hack, and the hack works well. Although for longer form productions it may drift (happened to me).

If you need timecode out to the deck, you need a capture card with RS-422 control, and a deck with the same. That is the only way to ensure it stays in sync and doesn't drift. So if your requirements are that you have locked timecode that starts at hour 1;00;00;00...then you need a capture card and deck with RS-422 (232) control.

Thanks one and all for the answers, especially pointing out how unclear I was in what I was asking.
You are right, and I wasn't thinking about firewire timecode. We have the Sony dsr 2000 edit decks with the RS-422 or RS-232 what ever it is. We either send the program out component or SDI to the 2000.
So what I need to understand is even with those decks, there will be no time code sent from the programs timeline to make it start at 1 hour. You can see how easy it would be to set FCP's tone, bars, slate etc and wind up at the one hour mark.

Please be patient with my ignorance.

bill

"So what I need to understand is even with those decks, there will be no time code sent from the programs timeline to make it start at 1 hour."

it might be a hard pill to swallow, bill, but that's what we're all saying.

time for you to get into "Edit To Tape"


nick

So Nick

If I just click my heels together and wish real hard, you think that won't be enough to do it?

Yeah, I just started to figure the Master and Edit to tape routine.

Also just to do a window burn, I've figured out the only way to do that is to collapse the track and then do the timecode filter trick. I mean is that so rarely used they couldn't have a simple window burn from the existing time line without going thru all that other?

My other biggest single problem is getting SoundTrack to go back to the time line once I save it, as happens with LiveType. But that's another issue.

Thank you so much for your time to write a line to me.

bill

What you need to do is black a tape...from start to finish. This used to be part of my job as an assistant editor, blacking tapes for outputs. You start the timecode at 58;00;00. Then when you need to output, you INSERT EDIT where you need. If you have color bars and a properly set up timeline (pads of black, slate, etc) you start the output at 58;30;00 (1 min of bars, 20 sec black, slate for 5 sec, 10 sec black, program).

Or you can "get away with" blacking the tape up to 1;00;20;00 and then ASSEMBLE EDIT the show in...making sure you have SLUG at the tail so the tape doesn't just stop having timecode when your program ends (it will get kicked back).

This is all basic stuff.

burn in:

you simply make a new sequence,
drag your final one into it,
and add a TC filter.

OR

add slug, or an empty text generotor to a track above your cut,
and apply the TC filter to that.

it seems simple to me, and it's also transparent.
people get annoyed and confused that FCP takes time to prepare the mastering elements for PTV and ETT (print to video, edit to tape)
imagine if they had to wait another half hour while the TC got rendered in!

the TC IS modifying the image, so does have to be rendered.
unless it was a hardware solution, like a keyer.
but then that's not FCP anymore.

with a fast enough system the TC filter is RT,
(it will look better if rendered),
but i don't think you can do an ETT without everything being rendered.
if you haven't rendered it, FCP will take time out to do it, i'm pretty sure.

all the best,
& happy easter,
nick

Just a big plug for blacking your record tape, and then INSERT editing-to-tape. Much more stable than assemble!

Marla

Can some clarify Shane's statement

If you need timecode out to the deck, you need a capture card with RS-422
control, and a deck with the same. That is the only way to ensure it
stays in sync and doesn't drift. So if your requirements are that you
have locked timecode that starts at hour 1;00;00;00...then you need a
capture card and deck with RS-422 (232) control.

I understand not using firewire to master to tape but is this different?

thanks
bill

Yes, it is different. You are now outputting to the deck via SDI or Component connections. Firewire is out of the picture in this case.

Yeah but. . .

Keven and others are telling me that no NLE sends out time code to a deck. If I am running rs422 to the deck, are you saying that time code can be sent when I print to video?

bill

Timecode doesn't actually flow out thru the cable. That controls the deck, and tells the deck to go to the timecode you specify in the Edit to Tape window for your output. Thus the need to black the tape and lay down timecode before you output. When you Assemble Edit, the DECK is generating the code, not the NLE.

Then I guess that is what so frustrating. FCP is sharing TC info with the deck cause it knows where it needs to be. Why would it be so hard, while the info is flowing back and forth, to just send the code through the rs422, as I know the rs422 can record TC from other sources. I'm almost sure the high end Avids do put TC to the deck via 422. My boss insists they do, but I haven't been using the Avids for a long while so can't say positive yes or no.

But yea verily, I shall trudge through the pre black nonsense.

Thank you so much for sharing your info. I feel much better knowing why I am frustrated.

If you ever want to know what 'crons' are and why they build up in your Mac, let me know. Or probably you already know.

thanks

bill

bill darst wrote:

> Then I guess that is what so frustrating. FCP is sharing TC
> info with the deck cause it knows where it needs to be. Why
> would it be so hard, while the info is flowing back and forth,
> to just send the code through the rs422

Because that's just the way it is.

> as I know the rs422
> can record TC from other sources.

Only the deck records TC.

> I'm almost sure the high end
> Avids do put TC to the deck via 422. My boss insists they do,
> but I haven't been using the Avids for a long while so can't
> say positive yes or no.

On every one I've worked on, I've always had to do the Edit to Tape - Digital Cut boogie.
>
> But yea verily, I shall trudge through the pre black nonsense.
>
It's not that tough. Just backtime your preshow elements and let 'er rip.

Just a big plug for blacking your record tape, and then INSERT editing-to-tape. Much more stable than assemble!

It's no more or less stable in my experience and takes longer than pre-striping a tape. In most cases, In most every case when mastering, I do an Assemble Edit. Very rarely do I need to actually do an insert with Edit to Tape. I never use Insert for mastering.



Kevin Monahan
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I find that - as a general rule accross lots of different editing platforms, that insert IS more stable than assemble (less artifacts or gliches or dropped frames: those sorts of icky things).

For me, it's worth the time, and it's something you can do when you go out to lunch, just set it up and then leave a tape to black...

Marla

Does this insert and assemble edit work using the DSR 11?

Maybe you're right Marla. I mean, this was the case with analog and online linear editing. I've just had no troubles that you've described in the digital realm. If I do, then blacking the whole tape and doing an insert will be first on the list for my troubleshooting to do's.

Bill, you can use the DSR-11 for an Edit To Tape mastering function.

The only problem is that you cannot black and code with preset timecode with that deck. So you cannot deliver a tape where the 1 hour TC marks the beginning of your show.

However, if you black and code tapes in another deck or camcorder with presettable TC, the DSR-11 can output a show where the 1 hour TC marks the beginning of the show.



Kevin Monahan
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Assemble editing only on the DSR-11.

And here's the hack to get TC to the deck so you can preset TC to 58:00:00 so that your shouw can hit on hour one:

TC to DSR-11

Since FCP 4 we have been unable to stripe a new TC such as 00:58:00:00 or 01:58:00:00 to a DVCAM tape with the DSR-11. NO MORE!! I think I found a solution.

Get SimpleVideoOut from the Apple (its free):

[developer.apple.com]

Then create a QT Movie in FCP or Xpress Pro from a sequence which has the starting TC you want on the tape. I just tried it with 00:58:00:00. In the timeline, I just put Bars & Tone for 90 seconds and a black slug for 45 (to take me over 01:00:00:00). You could create a sequence with whatever combination you wanted with the TC set to start at whatever timecode you need for your choice. But the Timeline TC MUST be set to your desired starting code. The exported QT file will have this TC in it.

Then load this DV QT movie into SimpleVideoOut (having selecting Firewire / Apple Firewire PAL or NTSC when you open the app).

Now load a fresh DVCAM tape and set your DSR-11 to:

REC MODE = DVCAM
DV IN TC = EXTERNAL

(Have the TC display turned on for this first test so you can verify it has worked.)

Then just hold the REC and PLAY buttons together on the DSR-11 and press play in the SimpleVideoOut app and the new TC will be recorded to your DVCAM tape. Hey presto you are now able to stripe a tape with what ever timecode you want using a DSR-11.

Remember to turn 'DV IN TC' back to INTERNAL on the DSR-11 when you come to record your edit to tape.

The problem with the DSR-11 is that it is not the best deck and starting recording at the exact TC, but playing with the pre-rolls should eventually get it spot on. I have had some success with FCP's 'Edit to Tape' and very good results with Avid Xpress Pro after a few tweaks.

Also, if you just had a black QT file, you can change the starting TC to suite the tape; i.e. 00:58:00:00 or 02:58:00:00 etc without going back into FCP or Xpress Pro and rendering out another QT. To do this, just use Sebsky Tools to alter the starting TC of the file.
[www.dharmafilm.com]

or change the TC in FCP.
but it would be a bit longer to open, and close again.

I;m pretty sure you can do an insert edit on the DSR11.
the in point will work, but when you drop out, you'll get a very ugly glitch.
you could use insert just to assemble.

but lets face it, with a DSR11 the accuracy of either will be a matter of chance.

i've got a DSR11, and i use SVO because of that.


nick