What to charge???? Quick Question, help!

Hey guys
I have a few live events coming up soon, shooting with some bands that are friends of friends. Nothing is set in stone, but I am going to be shooting their shows, and am wondering a general price range. The videos are to be put on their websites/myspace and possible press kit stuff. I will probably do a 2 camera setup with my partner. We've done this for free a few times but want to start charging, what is a reasonable price to ask for something like this, considering most these bands are dirt poor anyway, just local punk and rock bands..
Thanks
Ryan

the problem with this is that almost all bands have a few friends with cameras who will shoot them for free - just cause they get cool points... of course it wont be as cool as what you'd do - but hey - they can afford FREE.

as you say, most of these bands are dirt poor and cant afford to pay you anything anywhere near fair. id say if you can get $250 for an evenings shoot and a quick edit and export youre doing really well - but i doubt you'll get that much out of a working band.

if the band is actually making money - you may be able to get $750 - $1000 out of them, if you put together a full song video.

i did a LOT of this kind of stuff in my early days and what i learned is most often it ends up being a labour of love and is often a financial black hole.

I find in 'love' jobs like these it's often a good idea to ask the client what sort of budget they have for the job. This forces them to admit what they want to spend. You can then decide whether you can afford to take the job.

Sometimes they say "We don't really have any money" but I find that just asking them about budget often leads them to then say "But we could ...[insert goods or services here]"

If they've got no money and you still want to do the job, but would like something in return, maybe tell them you will do it for an 'hour for hour' rate. For every hour you spend on their video, they owe you one hour of work. Mowing your lawn, writing a song for your Mum for Mother's day, giving you some background music for another video, washing your car. Whatever. Barter can be a really useful way to get paid.

I like Jude's idea - having done a number of low budget band shoots and vids myself.

ALWAYS get your expenses covered.

Say it's 2x PD170 DVCAM shoot - in the UK you can pay about £140/$250 (£70/$125 each) for camera+tripod+extra batteries+wideangle lens (incl. insurance) per day - tape stock varies wildly but make sure you charge for it.

If you are doing it at cost - charge your kit at the cheapest going rate from a hire company and then if you find they do have a budget, work up from that point with your time factored in.

If you do things for free or at reducd cost make sure you get proper credit for your work and a big visible thank you and links to your setup on the bands shout outs, website and on the end of the video itself.





For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Wayne is right, that those types of jobs end up being financial black holes. If it were music videos for a celebrity, it would be adifferent story.

Jude's idea is best. Barter for what you need (even if it's in the future). For independent, local bands that perform music that I like, I may do a job for them for free in exchange for using their original music for free (with permission).

I currently have become good friends with a local musician that does it all (grunge, punk, slack key hawaiian, reggae) and we have collaborated on a few more projects, and the free advertising we give one another works well.

Hey Ryan,

In my experience...if the band is REALLY GOOD, then they won't be "dirt poor" for long (especially if you give them a hot video to market themselves with). The "starving artist" & "Labor of Love" thing goes only so far... TIME TO PAY THE MORTGAGE, ya know?

I would ask what their budget is. If it's ridiculously low, I would ask "what kind of video do you want?". Maybe you can just shoot it and give them the tapes at the end of the night. Shooting & Posting are 2 totally separate fees in my book - especially if they want film treatments / VFX / compression for web / DVD's / etc...

Sometimes...if they are not such a great band and they want too much for free...it is best to walk away from the gig. There are bigger fish out there and your time is $$$.

- Joey



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

as many here have said, trading service for service is a great way to go!

if you can trade them video service for permission to use their music - that can often save you more than youd have made from them to begin with.

If the band really believes that they can make a living doing music and a good performance video will help, they'll spend money. They bought their guitars, keyboards, drum kit. Even if they self produce CD they bought computer and software etc.

There are many things that influence rate. I shoot performance/bands regularly.

Charge a minimum. I charge an hourly rate for each camera and the audio record device (DAT for example). I charge for 1 hour set up time in addition to the performance and the performance is an hour minimum. That means they pay 2 hours per camera (and audio device if used) even if it's a half hour set. You certainly have to charge enough/pay enough that your camera people and audio person don't cancel for a better paying gig last minute. Fortunately band shoots are usually in the evening so they don't interfere with too much else.

I ALWAYS encourage them NOT to use camera audio as main source. At the very least record to DAT (or modern equivalent) from board (even though house mix is nothing like what mix should be for DVD/CD). At least it'll be cleaner. You can mix in camera audio if you need to "liven" the sound.

I almost always do multicam. 3 prefered but occasiionally 2 if the band is on a budget. I have done 1 camera for a solo performance but even that looks better with 2. If it's a mulimember band and they only want one camera they're not investing in themselves. I'll tell it's a bad decision. Spending less can actually mean waisting more money if they've bought nothing usefull.

Editing
Charge for editing at an hourly rate. That includes loading and syncing time. How long the edit takes will depend on music pacing and desired aesthetic. If you flat fee yourself you'll regret it. Don't do it. If they have a finite budget they get finite hours. If money is really tight they can just edit a few songs. At least they have everything on tape for a later (richer) day. Charge hourly for making the DVD and chapter markers for the songs.

Marketing
Tell them why a performance video is worth their money. In my opinion its money much better spent than a vanity music video for a struggling, unsigned band and even for a good established indy band. A good multicam performance video is a great live demo. Club bookers see actual performance in a live situation plus "money shot" close ups and solos. They may see audience interaction and hear response too. A well recorded live multicam performance can even be sold to fans. Might be more fun than a CD and doesn't really cost much more to do.

How much you charge depends on your gear and skills. Make sure you pay your crew enough so they won't cancel for other work. Make sure you keep the same crew from shoot to shoot. The coordination of a familiar crew really makes a difference in the quality of the shoot and coverage of band interaction, close-up, solos. Again you HAVE TO charge for setup because most clubs have horrible layout and lighting and you need the time to work around this . . . and often you're doing this with another band already on stage. I'd recommend using small low light capable cameras - Sony PD-170 for example. although some use DVX I dont' like the low light performance common in clubs and 24fps often makes it worse in those situations.

I've found serious bands will pay for the above. If they want one camera shoot with in camera audio they're hobbiests. They're not going to get much marketing material out of that. You can always shoot for fun and certainly might be worth a free trial with a friend's band to get yourself a demo reel to show other bands what you can do but I've found even "starving artists" will pay if they at some point want to making a living doing art.



Craig Seeman
[thirdplanetvideo.com]

Well said, Craig.

Bartering will get you nowhere and you won't be taken seriously as a Director / Editor if you keep giving away your work. Don't get me wrong...if it's Van Halen, I might barter...but local bands with no representation...forget it. If the band has representation, work out a deal with their management.

- Joey



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I know, ask them to play at your neices 4th birthday party for the day in exchange. See it their time is worth anything. You'll see a bunch of guys/gals saying well, we're busy, we've got other commitiments. Freee will get you No Where. When and if the band hits it big they will hire someone else and pay them lots because the director/shooter is a pro and they need pro quality stuff. Sorry is all you'll here if you start down this road. Be a pro now. It will pay in the end.

I apologize for the typos in the above post. Really, I do need new glasses.

Best

Chet Simmons
Las Vegas

Its true - signed band's music videos are usually handled by the agents/label so although you may do a wicked video for them the label will have a 'preffered suppliers list' which if you aren't on, then you're not gettting anymore work from that band...





For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

i second that ben! been on both sides of that deal...

As a fundamental, I NEVER believe or accept a promise for future work as an incentive to do a job.



Craig Seeman
[thirdplanetvideo.com]

Agreed Craig - (generalisation here so please regard as such) there is a certain type of person who blags a freebie for a project and will often try it on for reduced rate or free again and be reluctant to pay out and if you say no they will usually try elsewhere as there are too many people willing to take a knock.

Better to drag them kicking and screaming into the professional world where we do things for a living and love - not love alone...

Unless you have won the lottery and just do the charity thing! hehe I wish...





For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

I disagree. Personally, I think there's more to life than profiteering and career climbing. If you want to do the job, do it for the fun and experience of doing it, but ask that you get equal effort from them in return. That's not giving away anything.

good point - but jude. in keeping with the title of the thread:

"what to charge????..."