exporting from FCP to DVD Studio Pro - Question please help - Stuck with options

This is what I have been doing to export my 1 hr plus film from FCP 5.0.4 to DVD studio 4 :

1 - Export Unsing Compression (compressoe Version 2.0.1)
2 - I Select Mpeg 2 60 Min High Quality
It takes 2 & 1/2 days to render the sequence using compressor
3 - Import assesst into DVD studio 4
4 - Burn the DVD

Please keep in mind:

a - The length of the film is over an Hour
b - Sequence Preference NTSC 48 Khz 23.98

My MAc

My mac is 1.67 PowerPC G4 1.5 GIG memory

*** 1 - It takes 2 & 1/2 days to render the sequence using compressor


Questions:

1 - Am I exporting my film correctly?

2 - Should I use compressor at all?

3 - What is the best way to export the file with highest quality from
FCP to DVD studio pro?

Can someone help or refer me to a posting or documentation? I read the FAQ, but
I don;t know if using compressor is better here?
I 've reading a lot of posting all over the internet and they opposing
solutions?

Thanking you all in advance
Michelle

Even using a not-quite-top-of-the-line machine like yours, a show under two hours should not take so long. Something's definitely amiss.

What I'd do is first export a full-quality movie file from FCP -- Export - QuickTime Movie. I recommend self-contained, but some people go with just a reference file. Once that movie file is made, quit FCP and drag the movie file into Compressor. FCP's Export - Using Compressor is just another way of doing the above, and it's not necessary to have FCP open while you do this.

A 60-minute preset may not work if your film is over 60 minutes. You'll probably need to use the 90- or 120-minute presets.

The above points, however, don't seem like the cause of the length of your render. Are you sure your timeline doesn't have "junk" farther down that's making your sequence a lot longer than it seems? What other software are you running at the same time?

Also, it's not really necessary to use Compressor. The full-quality movie file above can be brought directly into DVD Studio Pro. If Compressor keeps giving you 60-hour render times, try bypassing it and burning your DVD with the full-quality movie file.


www.derekmok.com

Thanks for your quick reply. Yes I agree something is a miss. 2 & 1/2 days is incredible.
I have nothing else open when I use the compressor from FCP. I hope ur suggestion work to compress using outside of FCP.

I have no junk in the timeline. %100 sure of.
I do have multiple video & audio tracks.

Does compressor make the quality better or worst? Your reply does not address this? Why then use the compressor at all?

Thanking u in advance

> Does compressor make the quality better or worse?

Compressor gives you more control over encoding settings. Exporting a full-quality movie file from FCP and then encoding with DVD Studio Pro would give you fewer options for tweaking.

But just using Compressor alone wouldn't give you "studio/commercial-quality" DVDs. There's a reason people shell out the big bucks to pay professionals to make their DVDs.


www.derekmok.com

Since this is my first commercial DVD I'm trying to make...I like to produce the highest quality possible.

I invested a year and change into this film. I'm very interested to get your opinion and help on this.

Are you saying that no matter what export options/methods I use, I will not be able able to to produce a high quality commercial DVD?

1 - If not, Where would I go to have this done professionally?
2 - How much of difference in quality would I see?
3 - Are you saying that I should submit the job to a professional-company after I export the film from FCP o Just hand them the project file.?

Your reply has made me very concern that I may still have to spend more money at this final stage.

If this helps ur reply, I shot with DVX100B 24p (not 24p A) ..

I would really appreciate a reply.

> 2 - I Select Mpeg 2 60 Min High Quality
> It takes 2 & 1/2 days to render
> the sequence using compressor

Derek is right. It shouldn't take so long. Then again, 'high' quality usually means a 2 pass encoding. But that accounts for naught, coz compressor sets a 15 frame gop by default. For the best possible quality, you need to run through your film, insert compression markers where ever there are quick visual changes, or transitions. Then export via compressor, select gop pattern 'IP', shorten the gop length, and use an open gop. Open GOPs are preferable, because they allow the GOP to tap into information from surrounding GOPs, and shorter GOPs ensure accuracy. Data rate, not exceeding 7.5 mb/s. 2 pass encoding is preferable to 1 pass, but with shorter GOPs, not entirely necessary.


>
> 1 - Am I exporting my film correctly?
>

Something is amiss if you're taking 2 days to encode.


> 2 - Should I use compressor at all?
>

Yes, you should as it provides more options than dvdsp. And of course, sending it to a good compressionist helps you ensure optimal quality.

> Your reply has made me very concern that I may still have to spend more money at this final
> stage.

Unfortunately, if you're talking about professional-quality DVDs, I'd say that's accurate. You could never hope to achieve that kind of quality. You're also talking about the skill of image compression, a whole area of expertise in itself. It's unfortunate that the current culture and people's way of thinking about post-production has somehow been simplified into "no more money spent after the shoot". Post-production is a whole other budget in itself if you want to do it right. Making DVDs is another area to budget for. If you're thinking for real, this isn't even necessarily the "final stage" -- what about your DVD packaging and artwork? Publicity materials? Web deliverables? All these things cost money. You can do them yourself, but unless you're an expert in all these areas (a lot to ask), it won't be up to the standards of commercially available product.


www.derekmok.com

I appreciate the comments.

I picked this up from Larry Jordan's website -- I was wondering what your thought on this is? I'm using compressor 2. The article does not discuss GOP & IP etc .. as Strypes has noted , but this is the recommendation.. is this comment still applicable?

-------------- here is the site

[www.larryjordan.biz]

-------------- Here is a portion of the article

Step Back for Better Quality

I just learned two other tidbits on using the Compressor 1 shipped with FCP: using "Motion Estimation (Best)" may cause vertical jitter in your MPEG-2 movies. This problem can be avoided using "Motion Estimate (Better)".

Also, Compressor 2 has problems with both motion estimation and 2-pass VBR. If you are using Compressor 2 make sure to select 1-pass VBR Better and set Motion Estimate to Better. Using Best settings creates very poor video.

dvmichelle,


> I just learned two other tidbits on using the
> Compressor 1 shipped with FCP: using "Motion
> Estimation (Best)" may cause vertical jitter in
> your MPEG-2 movies. This problem can be avoided
> using "Motion Estimate (Better)".
>

- This i heard is true, because certain 'best' settings introduce artifacts into your video.

- The mention of the audio sync issue in the article, i heard has been resolved. And i haven't had problems with aiff (in fact, i trust aiff in terms of quality over ac3, as it is of uncompressed quality, with exceptions that it could run into problems with older dvd players).

- Exporting direct to compressor is recommended, as exporting a final cut file causes clips that need rendering to be compressed before it hits compressor (resulting in unnecessary double compression), however due to encoding time, many users prefer exporting a qt movie as frees up final cut, allowing you to be able to use fcp while compressor encodes in the background.

- 2 pass vbr should technically be a better choice, as 2 passes are used in encoding. This means that on the first pass, compressor will scan through the footage, deciding on where higher compression values should be used, then on the 2nd pass, it encodes. If there are calculation errors due on 2 pass vbr, then avoid 2 pass vbr encoding...

2 pass is more important when you're exporting long GOPs, as more calculation is required. The alternative, as i mentioned, is to shorten the gop...


Okay, guess we need a short introduction to the dvd encoding. There are a few methods of compression, one of which, is temporal compression, which compresses data over time, and the most common form is GOP compression. GOP stands for 'group of pictures', and it reduces data size by condensing individual frames into groups. Sounds complicated, but this is how it works- you have 3 kinds of frames in a GOP. Intraframe (aka keyframe), or I-frames. The I frame is the frame that contains the full picture. Then you have Bi-directional frames (B frames), and Predictive frames (P frames). These two kinds of frames do not contain a picture on its own. They contain calculations on pixel movements that is based off the I and reference frames. Within each GOP, you have a bunch of B and P frames and 1 I frame, thus allowing the size of data to be reduced.

Of course, the problems associated with this form of compression, is that they're terrible for cross dissolves as well as quick visual changes (fast pans, quick actions, etc), and at times, they fail to detect movements that are too subtle. One of the workarounds is to reduce the length of the GOP, which results in a higher amount of I frames to preserve accuracy (too much I frames would defeat the purpose of compression), another is to encode with an open GOP. Open GOPs tap into information from surrounding GOPS (thus I frames) for better estimation of pixels.

Constant bit rate or Variable bit rate? The idea is to maintain as constant a visual quality as possible. Some frames require less compression, some can get away with more, thus Variable bit rates are more effective. The next ideal, is to encode with as high a bitrate as possible (high enough for quality, low enough that older machines can play without stuttering). 7.5 mb/sec is fairly safe.

Audio wise, aiffs are uncompressed audio streams that can be encoded alongside mpg2, however, they might not be compatible with all players. AC3 (aka dolby digital) results in lossy compression, and are compatible with almost all players.




> Also, Compressor 2 has problems with both motion
> estimation and 2-pass VBR. If you are using
> Compressor 2 make sure to select 1-pass VBR Better
> and set Motion Estimate to Better. Using Best
> settings creates very poor video.

Select a shorter GOP in the preset, so you do not need 2 pass encoding.

Larry does good work and is well researched. But if you can't decide who to listen to, you need to do your own experiments. Make a small test piece and encode that at different rates and settings and see what difference it makes. Or just take your export to a DVD house and get them to do it.

Part of the decision is the good, fast, cheap equation. In everything you do, you can only choose two.
Good and fast - not cheap.
Fast and cheap - not good.
Good and cheap - not fast.

Thank you all for your replies & lessons .. etc etc ..

Since I've started this discussions, I've been experimenting with a number of settings that have been recommended. Thus far, I have seen little or no improvement to the quality of the exported projects onto the DVD

The original quick-times footages that I have captured looks much better than the output/exports from FCP. On the time-line or in the viewer the quality of the rendered segments looks still superior than what comes out at the end. There is more video noise and pixel-ation evident on the DVD output than on the original footage.

step 1 ------ I shot in DVX100 B (24p) not advanced
step 2 ------ Capture DV NTSC
step 3------- Rendering DV NTSC 23.9 on time line setting
step 4 ------ Export using quick time (Not self contained)

step 5 ------ a - using compressor-2 mpeg2 BEST NTSC 60 MIN -
range 4.0 & 7.2 bit rate Best "1" one pass
step 5 ------ b - using compressor-2 NTSC 60 mpeg 2 BEST
MIN range 4.0 & 7.2 bit rate Best t "2" two passes

step 5 ------ c - using compressor-2 NTSC c60 min mpeg best setting -
60 MIN range 4.0 & 7.2 bit rate "Better" t 1 Pass

Step 5--------d - from Self contained Quicktime - Straight into Studio pro

Step 6 -------- Then burn onto DVD from dvdstudiopro4

I have not messed with the GOP or inserting compressor markers in the timeline .. Nor have I used the 7.5 bit rate in compressor. My next experiement is to go to compressor directly from FCP. That takes forever ( as I mentioned hours for 1 hr film it takes 2 days and half) during which my computer is useless. and I'm afraid it is going to burn down from heat.

If these last test does not help, I see no way to better the quality of the DVD on my own.
I don't mind shelling the money for a professional house to do the compression and make a master. But at this point, I wonder if I would see any considerable improvements, specially if the professionals are using the same compression settings.

Any final advice is welcomed and appreciated. Also if anyone can recommend one of these DVD houses in NYC and aapproximate cost of mastering a 1 hr and 6 minutes film

Thanks you all

> On the time-line or in the viewer the quality of the rendered segments looks still superior than
> what comes out at the end.

What are you looking at when you say "comes out at the end"? QuickTime movie at full quality (Current Settings)? Via QuickTime Player or FCP's external video?

Are you using Final Cut Pro 4.5 or older? If so, open the movie file in QuickTime Player, press APPLE-J and check "High Quality".

Secondly:

> step 1 ------ I shot in DVX100 B (24p) not advanced
> step 2 ------ Capture DV NTSC
> step 3------- Rendering DV NTSC 23.9 on time line setting

You should not be editing 24p (since you say you didn't shoot 24pA) in a 23.98fps timeline. 24p footage has pulldown frames added to make 29.97fps; you should either edit it in a normal DV NTSC 29.97fps timeline, or you need to remove those by performing a reverse telecine with Cinema Tools, or by capturing with a capture card to remove pulldown on the fly in order to edit in 23.98fps. By trying to get FCP to do the frame-rate conversion, the motion probably suffered.

A friendly tip: Please try to write more clearly, with proper grammar, capitalization and sentence structures. Your posts are very hard to read and it only slows down our efforts to help you. OK?


www.derekmok.com

Haven't done work in 24p or (23.98), but derek is most certainly right on this- you need to edit in the framerate of your media. Anything else and final cut will be doing the conversion via rendering, which produces less than optimal result.

- I forgot to include- DVDsp is set to rip dvds at max speed, which is never optimal either. Ken Stone has a page on ripping it via disk utilities/dvdsp.

- A bit range of between 4 to 7.2? I usually go for 6 to 7.5 (and i haven't an issue so far).

- There is no difference between a QT self-contained movie and a reference movie. Both methods will cause your footage to be rendered to your sequence codec (hence an eventual double compression).

- Quality wise, it shouldn't be so bad. There will definitely be a decrease in quality because you are effectively toggling between an editable codec and an end user codec. Is your broadcast monitor calibrated? Spatial compression could result in blockiness/pixelation in extremely dark areas (or areas beyond broadcast safe). If blocks occur around transitions, it is likely due to GOP errors (inserting an I frame at the transition and reducing the GOP length will help a lot).

- Next, the Viewer in Final Cut is NOT a good gauge. It automatically lowers the quality to what the processor can handle. A calibrated broadcast monitor is the solution. An alternate way to check for codec consistency is to export a targa picture of a few shots before and after the conversion, off the timeline. (though i don't think final cut handles m2v, but i could be wrong).

to add on to that- you should try experiment a qt self contained movie but with a shorter gop length as well as compression markers and see if that helps.

Could this possibly be related to the problem with the 2-pass compression that made things jerky? Try doing a 1-pass compression.

Thanks for all the replies and guidance.
I profess my English is no so good. It's not my first language. So Thanks for putting up with it thus far.

Ok - I followed your advice . I switched my Audio video setting sequence preset to DV NTSC 48 KHZ. I'm going to render the entire sequence with this new setting. And then burn a DVD using compressor method. I'll change the bit rate range to 6 to 7.2.

One thing I'm not sure of, if at this point I can just change the sequence setting and re-render the entire footage with the new sequence preset? Is this ok? Or possible? And Would it still keep the film-like look of 24p?

Thanks again
Michelle

Thanks - I wan to report sucess with the information you all provided.
After testing several settings in compressor I was able to find a setting that made the DVD look a bit better.

The best dvd output I have gotten is when I export from FCP directly to compressor.
It takes longer but yields the best results I guess.
Though I still don;t understand why ?