What's the best camera for under 10k?

For broadcast quality music videos, etc... and that are compatible with FCP? I'm looking, and I think that this is the best group to ask.
Luna

the Sony PMW- EX1 is an excellent camera if it suits your shooting style ... FWIW got a nice review from Adam Wilt the other day

Quote
It may be a pain to handhold and some of its controls and connectors could use some improvement, but the PMW-EX1 has raw resolution, latitude, highlight handling, flexibility, and tweakability unmatched by anything else under $10,000.

[provideocoalition.com]

This isn't the best forum for Camera recommendations. There are a few shooters here but the vast majority are Post Production peeps. You'll get a better cross section of Camera Op opinions if you try shooter forums:

[dvcreators.net]

[www.videomaker.com]

[forums.creativecow.net]

[www.cinematography.com]

There's more...GOOGLE is your friend

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

grafixjoe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This isn't the best forum for Camera
> recommendations. There are a few shooters here but
> the vast majority are Post Production peeps.
> You'll get a better cross section of Camera Op
> opinions if you try shooter forums:
>
> [dvcreators.net]
>
> [www.videomaker.com]
>
> [forums.creativecow.net]
>
> [www.cinematography.com]
>
> There's more...GOOGLE is your friend

I beg to differ. True if you need cinematography advice ask a cinematographer, but if you can't find one ask an editor. What are we staring at all day long? In some ways editors can judge cinematography better than operators. They may know how to handle the camera and dial in the images, but they spend most of their time looking through viewfinders and LCD's. We get to see it in all it's glory and that can make us better qualified to point out the strengths and weaknesses of various cameras.

Sony EX 1 (XDCAM, 4:2:0 color space, VERY sharp images, fast import, but not the best codec)
Panasonic HVX-200 (DVCPRO HD, 4:2:2 color space, easy codec to work with)

Both cameras are tapeless formats, just so you know.

Canon XL-H1 (HDV, 4:2:0 color space, sharp image)

But I am a big fan of the first two cameras. HVX-200 especially.


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I have not compared the workflow between the EX1 and HVX200, but I suspect there isn't a big advantage of one verses the other.

However, the image sensor used in the PMW-EX1 camcorder is a newly developed three x 1/2 type Exmor? CMOS sensor, each with an effective pixel count of 1920 x 1080, which produce images in full HD resolution. The low-light capabilities and the greater depth of field of this new sensor produces a stunning image. Also at various demo's of this camera I have heard that at 35Mb's it works in the 4:2:2 color space and although it still produces an m2t file this is why Sony claims this is a true HD camera. I don't buy into that premise.

I also don't believe that the 960x1080 DVCProHD codec is a better codec.

If this camera was available when I purchased my Panasonic I might have purchased the EX1. I guess time will tell if the camera lives up to the hype.

Chuck, even at 35mbps it shoots 4:2:0, if someone at a demo told you different then they are snake oil salesmen. And the CMOS sensor is a single sensor, and is "effectively" 1920x1080...it isn't really. And because it is CMOS, it has the "rolling CMOS" issue where fast pans cause straight lines to be crooked. And XDCAM is not the best codec to edit. But, even Sony says to render out as ProRes when you are all done.

On paper it shouldn't look as good as it does, but it does. 4:2:0 for acquisition doesn't appear to be that bad, and if you render NOT in that codec, but in a better one like ProRes, then you render in a 4:2:2 color space. But yeah, low light is great, the image is sharp, and the workflow is not too bad. It is a serious competitor to the HVX, and I hope will spur Panasonic to make the HVX better.

Trying not to dis the camera because I know it is darn good. I just have issues with a few things about it. I have issues with the HVX too...such as the stupid 1280x1080 instead of 1440x1080 aspect for 1080i, and the low light issue. But I hold firm to the fact that DVCPRO HD is a better codec than XDCAM. But, that is IMHO. You can have YHO too.


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Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Very good experience on three features on Canon XL H1 Used with a Focus hard drive.

Panasonic HVX 200 is a pain with the expensive cards and, strangely, under test, not as crisp an image as the Canon.

Harry

Dear Gene,

Yours is a different discussion altogether. I sure wouldn't go to a shooter & ask him how to edit or ask what's the best set-up for an edit suite. We see the differences in images all the time, but there's a lot more to consider than the image we see as editors / compositors... and experienced shooters know more about the ins & outs of cameras (mechanics / capabilities / upkeep / accessories / etc) and how to get the best image out of one than editors...period. The competence of the shooter dictates whether or not we have to "fix it in post"... which is FINE WITH ME ($$$$).

Like I said...there are a few here that know cameras and some of them have weighed in here. I merely said the original poster would get a WIDER CROSS SECTION OF OPINIONS in other forums where more shooters live. Shooters are shooters. The good ones know their rigs inside out and know what images are capable of being captured. I'll take a good shooter's advice over an editor regarding cameras any day of the year.

Peace

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

oh bejeezuz! here we go again...

"...HVX 200 is a pain with the expensive cards..." the so-called "expensive" cards pay for themselves in about 2 uses when you consider the time saved in log and real-time capture. and pays for itself again with the smoothest and most trouble-free codec workflow ive ever used

and yeah, the canon may have a "crisp" image. but that images falls apart as soon as the subject or (or camera) moves.

this whole camera discussion has been had here into the ground and im more guilty of that than anyone ; )

dvxuser.com has a lot more "shooter-centric" info.

Gee, Wayne. I guess you don't like the Canon. I've shot three movies in the last two years with it and I don't see the image falling apart "when it moves". The films passed QC all over the world including the US without issue.

And, as I mentioned in my suggestion, using a Firestore hard drive gives you real time capture without the need for - yes - expensive cards which hold limited data usually necessitate running transfers to a computer and erasure during a shoot. I think that's kinda dangerous and scary. I don't want some PA running around with P2 cards at two in the morning and screwing up.

That's why I went with the Canon and the Firestore, despite the fact that it's HDV. Quality and convenience

Harrumph!

Harry

I am with you in that respect, harry...wouldn't want PA or even an assistant for that matter responsible for transfer & deletion. Firestore sounds like the way to go - especially for the HVX200.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I've been cutting a doc for the past 3 years using a DVX100, an HVX200 and a Canon HV-20. It's all good if the operator knows his/her limitations. Editors would know a lot based on the stuff that makes the cut as well as the stuff that doesn't. We also tend to do some or all of the grading, and can judge based on how to help an image pop. I guess the best scenario would be to ask both an operator and an editor. You can't go wrong with an HVX but it sounds like the Sony PMW-EX1 is a great one for the sub-$10k set. We hold Adam Wilt's assessment's like a religion.

Whoa, lots of great info. Joey, thanks for the other links too. I did post this question on this forum because I really respect the varied opinions, and I know that with the many editors, footage from all the top cameras would have been worked with. I as an editor have been given footage that, for example stuttered or posed FCP problems, didn't look good, etc., and that's why I wanted opinions from the peeps here. To everyone who has pitched in their 2 cents, thank you, it all helps.

Shane this came from the Sony EX1 Website:

"The image sensor used in the PMW-EX1 camcorder is a newly developed three x 1/2 type Exmor? CMOS sensor, each with an effective pixel count of 1920 x 1080, which produce images in full HD resolution. The low-light capabilities of this new sensor will be of particular interest to all those who need to be able to capture footage in limited lighting applications."

Are you saying that it isn't a 3 chip camera? It sounds like they are claiming its a three chip camera, although the way it is worded is a bit odd.

If it is a three half inch chip camera wouldn't the depth of field be better than the other three one third inch chips?

>even at 35mbps it shoots 4:2:0
absolutely ... it is the forthcoming XDCAM HD F700 camera that shoots 4:2:2 (at 50mbs)

>and the CMOS sensor is a single sensor, and is "effectively" 1920x1080...it isn't really.
actually no. it has 3 1/2" CMOS chips each with an "effective" resolution of 1920x1080

Adam Wilt writes in his EX1 review

Quote
The 1/2? Exmore CMOS chips have an honest-to-goodness 1920x1080 resolution, and handle interlaced and progressive scanning with equal aplomb. There is no pixel-shifting, nor does the image coarsen when using shutters in progressive mode. Sony claims 1000 TVl/ph (TV lines per picture height) resolution, and I see that on the test charts

as compared to the HVX200 with 3 1/3" 960x540 CCD's which use pixel shifting to achieve a maximum theoretical resolution of 1440x810 pixels higher resolutions (resampled in camera to a working resolution of 1920x1080 and a recorded resolution of 960x720 for 720p or 1280x1080 for 1080i/60, or 1440x1080 for 1080i/50)

>It is a serious competitor to the HVX, and I hope will spur Panasonic to make the HVX better.
Well its opinion's all round of course, but it seems arguable that the HVX200 really needs to up its game before it can seriously compete with the EX1, and I for one certainly hope that Panasonic does just that. Its win / win for us.

>Are you saying that it isn't a 3 chip camera? It sounds like they are claiming its a three chip camera, although the way it is worded is a bit odd.

I stand corrected. I just now read the Adam Wilt article. Beg pardon.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

No worries. I have not Adam Wilts article either.

As one of the gate keepers (experts) on this site, you need to be careful about dispensing information. This isn't a criticism,its more of a back handed complement.

I was kind of excited about the EX1 and after reading your post I was thinking I didn't need that piece of crap. Just kidding.

No problem...I hear ya. I hear that it was a single sensor, but that was based on my IBC hearings, when the camera first came out. So I didn't update my info.

No, I think it is a great camera. As I said, on paper it shouldn't look as good as it does in real life.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

> As one of the gate keepers (experts) on this site, you need to be careful about dispensing
> information.

Well, we all do our best to be accurate, but mistakes happen. No big deal.


www.derekmok.com

Adam Wilt likes the HVX-200 better...because of it's versatility and ability to shoot HD and SD:

[provideocoalition.com]

Just FYI.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]