Subtitles with lower thirds

I do mostly documentary work in multiple languages, and always at this point in the process, butt my head into this: If I have a lower third AND subtitles... what gives?

I've tried putting subtitles at the top of the screen... I've tried putting subtitles above the lower third... I'm never happy with either. What do you prefer?

Smack dab in the middle of the interviewee's face...with a word balloon surrounding it.

No...seriously now.

Above the lower third or on the top...whichever obscures less. I have seen it in both. Not much you can do. Or...NEXT to it. But two shows ago where we needed this, it was above the lower third, and off to the side as not to obscure the speaker.


www.shanerosseditor.com

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As Shane said, there's no right or wrong about it. And it also depends on the framing -- you have to go case by case. I don't think I've ever seen any materials for the big screen (projection) where subtitles are put on top, though. That may be a TV convention only.

I've also done a commercial where the picture was letterboxed...but there was text information in the letterbox bar areas, both top and bottom; lower thirds within the letterbox frame; and subtitles to translate both the voice-over and the lower thirds, and later also onscreen, centered text. Biggest subtitling nightmare I've ever come across. The frame looked like a tattoo design.


www.derekmok.com

I saw them on top when I was in Amsterdam watching Discovery Channel on their networks. Subtitled in Dutch on the bottom, but when a lower third was about to pop up, the subtitles moved to the top. Kinda like a warning...

WARNING...WARNING...LOWER THIRD AHEAD! DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

I really like the idea of putting them in the Letterbox- but I usually can afford to letterbox out only what is outside the title safe anyways.

Is it kosher to mix above and at the top in the same project?

> Is it kosher to mix above and at the top in the same project?

I think so. You try to stick with one style if possible. Besides, if you have so much text that you can't just use the top or higher on the bottom, then chances are people won't be able (or willing) to read all of it anyway.

Again, client demands have caused me to do a mix-and-match...instead of asking their copy writers to, ahem, write better and more economically, they often prefer to ask the editor to crunch up the letters more! "Ah, it's okay to go a bit out of Title Safe!"

Working for ethnic clients can be interesting. I put "Whoa, Nelly!" as a subtitle once and they were quite amused, never having heard that expression before.


www.derekmok.com

most docs i see these days have the lower third in the middle,
well, above where any subtitle has to be.

seen a couple of features lately (Russia's "Nightwatch" and an Aussie film "Lucky Miles" where the subtitles would pop all over the screen depending on who was talking.
the "Nightwatch" subtitles were joke-ishy behave differently each time: fly in or off, wobble & dissolve off, etc, etc

probably not the effect you;re looking for!


nick

Over here (Netherlands) subtitles go up a little if there are lower thirds, but only of they not obscure faces / eyes.
Only then they go to the top.
But then of course you're fighting the station bug...

There is nothing you can do except ask for a non-titled copy and re-do the lower thirds to a better place (but always the lower thirds are needed on the first time a person appears, and sadly that's always a CU...

(got many t-shirts....)

Bouke

www.videotoolshed.com
smart tools for video pro's

Quote
Bouke
(got many t-shirts....)

i don't know what that means, but it made me laugh!


nm

What is the best way of doing subtitles in FCS2? Am i right in thinking DVDSP does them or is it better to use FCP6?
My friend is doing a doco about Tanzania and needs to know the best way to do them.
Cheers, Dom

there's no single FCP text generator that has everything you want for AUTOMATED subtitles:
LOOK: border, drop shadow, box effects
LAYOUT: bottom justifed, constrained.

the layout issues are that idealy you need botom justified to cope with 1-line and 2-line subtitles,
and "constraining" the text so it fits within a specified region

Andreas Keil of Spherico FIlm Tools makes the only "Bottom Justified" FCP text generator, but it doesn't have border or "box" controls
There's a free "Auto-format" Text generator from Aussie guy Stib, [www.fxscript.org] but i cant seem to get it to be bottom justified


as for the actual subtitling, look into these options:

Spherico Title Exchange Pro [www.spherico.com]
i suppose you could say this works "within" FCP.
you add the subtitle text to markers in a timeline.
TEP converts markers to FCP text generator using XML based on a template you create


PRO:
TRANSPORT: it's in FCP, so very familiar
works with many FCP text generators, which are of course editable
has Spell check
has "Auto Duration" controls
CON:
adding text to markers in FCP can be seen as a bit clunky,
no "live entry" makes for slow work, and there's no "live preview" of your work, so you could easily write too much into one subtitle.

***it shouldbe noted that TEP has other functions:
TEP can be used to batch re-process existing FCP text. wrong shade of yellow on 2000 subtitles? oops! TEP will fix it.

Belle Nuit Subtitler [www.belle-nuit.com]

Totaly self contained.
import a QT file and enter subtitles.
it genreates TIFF files that get overlied in FCP (via an EDL, i think)

PRO:
live preview of subtitles
ABSOLUTE BEST for formatting the titles.
evey subtitle option you'd ever want: outline, dropshadow, or box.
bottom justified
warnings for overlong or too short subtitles
CON:
feels like interface hasnt been updated since 1999
very small timeline
Transport: uses avid shortcuts, which cant be edited,
you have to bounce back and forth between transport section and text entry section
no spell chack, on top of which...
MAJOR CON: TIFF files are un-editable! (gotta go back into BN to re-do any errors / omissions)

InqScribe [www.inqscribe.com]
Transcription app
import a QT, and add text on the fly
uses XML to generate the FCP titles, based on a template you create
(live updating of text, i think, but not sure?

PRO:
made tor transcriptions, so designed for "live entry" of text. (fast)
transport controls are editable shortcuts.
you can map them to the number pad, leaving keyboard for text.
CON:
cant remember! didnt realy use it enough
not sure there's much in the way of duration guides

SubBits [www.videotoolshed.com]
designed for subtitling from the ground up
import a QT, write your subtitles, export an XML

PRO: live text enrty, live preview
editable shortcuts.
spell check
many specific subtitling functions
CON:
i think it can only work with one FCP text generator.

inqScribe can lay in a track of text generators with your subtitles into your timeline in FCP. Definitely nicer than making each one one by one.

It also does well putting it into DVDSP.

Hey thats brilliant Nick. I'll pass that on to my mate. I'll also give one of the free trials a go myself. Many thanks.

Quote
Nick
Andreas Keil of Spherico FIlm Tools makes the only "Bottom Justified" FCP text generator, but it doesn't have border or "box" controls

Quote
Advertisement ;-)

Hi viewer of this post,

Out of a million list members and lurkers - You are selected.
For a limited time you can download "Text Up 2" for free, that's a 10 dollar value.
[www.spherico.com]

I does have box and outline controls - no drop shadow yet.

Regards
Andreas

Some workflow tools for FCP [www.spherico.com]
TitleExchange -- juggle titles within FCS, FCPX and many other apps.
[www.spherico.com]

brilliant!
thanks Andreas.

i know which text generator i'll be using for subtitles...


merry xmas
nick

Cool, thanks Andreas.

clicked on it and it opened up FCP6 but i'm getting a pop up saying Wrong File Type?

Quote
Dom Stevenson
clicked on it and it opened up FCP6 but i'm getting a pop up saying Wrong File Type?

Yeah that's the funny thing with FCP sometimes, doesn't now what to do with files designed for it ;-)

It's a text generator plugin and you have to drag it to "/Library/Application Support/Final Cut Pro System Support/Plugins/", then restart FCP.
You'll find the new generator then in the "Viewer" window if you click the little "A" icon down on the right at "Spherico Text -> Text Up 2"

Good Luck
Andreas

Some workflow tools for FCP [www.spherico.com]
TitleExchange -- juggle titles within FCS, FCPX and many other apps.
[www.spherico.com]

That was simple enough.

Hey, this is a major improvement on my own (rather laborious) attempts at subtitles.

Thanks Andreas.

Nick Meyers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Andreas Keil of Spherico FIlm Tools makes the only
> "Bottom Justified" FCP text generator, but it
> doesn't have border or "box" controls

No offence to Andreas who does fantastic work but if our DH_Subtitle generator had feelings, it would be deeply hurt. :-) It's been hard at work creating bottom justified subtitles since 2004.

[www.digital-heaven.co.uk]

and there will be a new version coming out soon, so stay tuned...

Martin Baker
[www.digital-heaven.co.uk]
Unique plug-ins and tools for Apple Pro Apps

Pleas pass my sincerest apologies on to DH_Subtitle, Martin

I wont leave it out in future.


nick