Mpeg Streamclip question

When exporting a ripped DVD to Quicktime using Mpeg Streamclip, what frame rate should I use?
I left it blank for a test and it still exported but seemed to jump a bit.

This will ultimately be mixed with other Quicktime files in FCP, a lot of which were digitized from video tape.

Thanks...

Sean

Sean-

At what frame rate are you editing? It is probably best to work at that rate. Now there are some rate changes that are non-trivial, so you may have to export from Streamclip at one rate and use another tool to get the best looking transcode to a different rate.

So if you have a 24 fps DVD and you are going to an NTSC project, Streamclip may well do that for you by adding 2:3 pulldown.

However if you have a PAL DVD at 25fps and need to edit in NTSC you will need to use Compressor or Graham Nattress's tool after you pull the clip off the DVD.

-V

I'm not a pro with this program or with video stuff in general, so if I misunderstand something I apologize....

My FCP projects are set to "Editing Timebase : 29.97" (all digitized from NTSC video).

So can/should I make Mpeg Streamclip export the DVD captures to quicktime at that rate?

What should my "Field Dominance" be set to? It's set to "Lower" in FCP. Should it be the same in Mpeg Streamclip?

Sean

29.97 is the correct setting for standard def video in NTSC. I am guessing you are using DV right? If so lower is the proper field dominance.

As always if you are concerned about something, do some testing. Take a short export with the settings that you like. Streamclip lets you set in and outs. Mark about a minute of video that is typical for the stuff you will be using. Include some camera and subject motion, as that is were frame rate errors are the most obvious. Then take that clip through your entire workflow and see that it looks good. Not only in FCP on the desktop, but also in your external monitor (you should have one), and your tape or DVD out.

Once you are confident that all that is good you can start the long process of transcoding and editing. The test time will be WELL worth the effort.

-Vance

Ok I just did a test. The video seems ok looking, however there is still some freezing when I export at 29.97. Is this because DVD is 24? I exported at 24 and there seems to be no freezing frames.

I'm not sure what transcoding is.

Half the footage I have digitized is at 29.97 (from NTSC video tape), as are my project settings, the other half will be digitized off DVDs, I guess at 24. Does it matter that they are different frame rates? If so how do I change that?

Thanks!!!

Sort of hard to know exactly without seeing the freezes, but lets go with the idea that Streamclip isn't cutting it for you.

By putting 24fps clips on a 29.97 timeline you are letting FCP do the frame rate conversion for you. That is probably just fine.

Are you using FCS 2 (or FCP 6)? The reason I ask is that the latest version of the software wants to set the timeline to match the setting of the first clip you put on it. If that first clip is a clip from a 24 fps DVD then your timeline will be 24 fps. Not great when you get to a 29.97 tape clip. Make sure that your timeline is set to 29.97 by dropping a tape clip on it first, even if it isn't your first shot.

Do you have a colored bar over the DVD clips on the timeline? FCP will put a color code over each clip that does not match the sequence settings. Some of these colors tell you that you can use the clip as it, others mean you need to render. Even if the clip play properly while you are editing I would recommend that you render your finished project before you output it. While this is not strictly necessary for all work flows, it is a good practice.


Transcoding, at least as I have used the term here, refers to the process of taking one format of media and changing it to another. If you take an HD clip and make it SD then you downcovert. Upconvert to go the other way. Most any other change from one format to another is loosely called a transcode.

Thanks for the help!
I use FCP 5.1.4
So no problem will result if I mix DVD .mov clips (24) and videotape clips (29.97)- other than FCP telling me to render the DVD clips?
Thanks again...

Also, I just noticed that the freezing on playback in Quicktime seems to happen only when I change the resolution from 640x480 to something else before I export the clip from Mpeg Streamclip.

In my experience using DVD clips via Streamclip has been fine. Your milage may very. Your tests should be your final guide.

What size are you setting the clips to? Is it the same as your sequence?

-V

I'm not sure what you mean by size. Where do I set the size? Do you mean resolution? If so I've set the export to 640x480because all other sizes having some freeze framing on playback in Quicktime.

Also, I've had major resolution problems with FCP capturing video at differing resolutions (within seconds of the last capture from the same video tape).

Anyway- all my old captures from years back were 720x480. They seemed to work fine for what I need to do with them. All the new/current captures (on new computer with a different version of FCP) are 720x480 but look widescreen (stretched) when viewed in Quciktime. So I have to resize them to 640x480 to look normal. My projects in FCP are set to 640x480 (under AUDIO/VIDEO SETTINGS, sequence PRESETS and CAPTURE PRESETS). Is there anywhere else I need to set my resolution?

You mentioned size in an earlier post. I was just curious if you were doing something non standard.

As for the difference between 720x480 and 640x480 check the faq or search "pixel aspect ratio." I'd be happy to explain this, but it has been covered continuously in past threads.

When ripping a DVD that I recorded on my Panasonic standalone recorder, it always asks if I want to fix timecode breaks. I always have, but I wonder if that has any effect on my video if I'm just going to be importing it into DVDSP anyway. Does anyone know?

Thanks,
Casey

Casey-

Not to bet this to death, but try a test. I think that if you don't fix timecode, Streamclip will stop exporting at the first timecode break.

-Vance

Vance,
ok, thanks.

Regarding Mpeg Streamclip- for clips I've digitized from a DVD using MacTheRipper, can I export them (to Quicktime) at 29.97 and have them work OK in a FCP project that uses clips digitized from video tape at 29.97? By "OK", I mean without having to render them for playback during editing?

Also- when exporting from Mpeg Streamclip what should my "Field Dominance" be set to? It's set to "Lower" in FCP. Should it be the same in Mpeg Streamclip?

Any other things I should do/know to make a DVD export to Quicktime from Streamclip work in FCP (a 29.97 project) without having to render it during editing?

As a general rule, if all your elements are the same, then you will not have to render. Final Cut is more than happy to tell you if everything is OK, just check the color bars that appear over the clips.

Field Dominance is dependent on the Codec you are using. Generally codecs are upper field first, with the huge exception of DV video in NTSC. Then you need to set to lower. A search of this forum will turn up tons of threads on this topic. Most more eloquent than what I would be able to quickly offer.

As for MacTheRipper, I can't offer much advice. Either by experience or legally. If you are working from commercial DVD's that are copyrighted you could be on shaky ground ripping the video and using it in your work. The reason that you have to bypass copy protection is that the material is copyrighted and the owner feels, justifiably, that you should be paying them for it's use.

There are circumstances that do allow you to use that sort of material. They fall under a legal principle of fair use.

If you are planning to use this stuff for anything other than your own personal use you might find yourself having a discussion with some not so friendly studio lawyers. Do proceed with caution.

-Vance

Vance,
thanks. Yeah but what elements do I need to make sure are the same? Frame Rate and Field Dominance or only Frame Rate or what? I've used different resolution clips before and haven't had the red bar (which is the render bar I'm trying to avoid). But I've tried to put the DVD clips and the video tape clips into the same project (even DVD clips I've exported at 29.97!) and I get the red render bar. I need to be able to view the clip, cut it, move it, without having to render it every time I play. Any clue what should be done to avoid the red render bar?

Field Dominance: The default in my FCP was set to Lower. So all my video tape clips are captured this way. With Mpeg Streamclip, the DVD clips Field Dominance can be set when you export to Quicktime. I just need to know which it should be set at. Do they need to be the same?

Mactheripper: these are DVDs I have made. I just need to get them off DVD at the best possible quality, which is why I'm trying to do it on the computer rather than through my Sony Media Converter box which seems to cut the quality down.

Ok so if you made these DVD's a couple of thoughts. First MacTheRipper is an extra, unnecessary step. You can open the media on the DVD directly with MPEG Streamclip. Just use the File Open Dialog in Streamclip, navigate to the VIDEO_TS folder on the DVD. The .VOB files are the media. If you are pulling one long movie choose the lowest numbered .VOB. If you have a bunch of clips on the disk you will have to open each to see what it is.

Next if Streamclip asks about timecode fixes, let it go ahead. Now, if you are only looking for an excerpt mark in and out around the material that you need.

Finally to make the DV movie use the Export to DV option (or hit command-option-E). This should, without further futzing around, make a proper DV export of your media. By choosing export as DV you are telling the program what you want, it should know what you need.

My second thought on the DVD's you made. Did you make them as 24p DVD's, or did you export plain old video to them at 29.97? If your original source was tape you must have gone to some effort to make them 24fps. Most tape sources want to be 29.97 by default.

-Vance

Ok, so I shouldn't export to Quicktime? How does DV export know what I need?

See what I want to do is export the DVD clips at the same frame rate as the majority of clips I already have, which were from video tape at 29.97. I want to do this in order to avoid red bar rendering.

So, can I export DVD captures from Streampclip at 29.97 (even though the clips are from a DVD, presumably 24) and use them along side my video tape clips (29.97) in FCP without the render problem?

Thanks!

Well you said you made the DVD's. Was the frame rate 24?

As for the suitability of the DV export, best I can suggest is to try it.

There are a lot of variables in all this. Without seeing what you are doing I can only guess about what will work.

-V

I had the DVDs made for me. I am in no way a video expert (as you may have guessed by now). I have no idea what the specs on them are and cannot find out.

I was more talking about what's the correct way to export- again, in Streamclip can you export a digitized DVD (presumably 24) clip to Quicktime at 29.97? Is that going to effect the quality of the picture?
Other stuff- Will it work ok in FCP with video tape capture .mov files (also 29.97) without the need to render to view in canvas? Are there other settings when exporting other than Frame Rate that need to match to avoid the render issue?

Anyway, thanks....

I'm also a newbie, wanting to get my feet wet editing. I'm using iMovieHD for the moment, mostly for things on my DVR I wish to later edit the commercials from.

I recently downloaded StreamClip and inputted 2 hours (1/3) of a 6-hour documentary I'd laid off to DVD. I then outputted that in Quicktime at 23.976fps, thinking I'd put it into iMovie and do some simple editing. But the outputted version was almost 5 times what I put in!

As a DVD can only hold 4.7gB, how is it that the outputted Quicktime file is almost 14gB (much too big for iMovie to upload and handle)???

TIA!

Mike

Hi, Mike.

it;s generally best to start a new thread rather than ask a new question on an old one.


video is highly COMPRESSED to fit onto DVDs.
it's in an MPeg format and it's not god to edit with.


when you get it back using Streamclip you are turning it into editable video which is not so compressed.
for iMovie you;d probably be working with DV format

that's about 13G per hour.
so i dont know how you are getting 14G for 2hrs???

at 6hrs your original Doco would have really been around 78 Gigs!
Compressing a 6Hr doco down to fit on a DVD is some serious compression


for what it's worth converting to DVD format, then back to DV, then making a new DVD is going thru a lot of conversions,
and it wont look that great.
especially with the compression needed to squeeze 6hrs onto a DVD.

do you have access to the original doco?


nick

Hi Nick,

Thanks for the reply. It appears simple edits are beyond the capability -- at least, capacity -- of my G4 PowerMac; though I was able to upload three half-hour programs, make Quicktime files, input them into iMovie, remove the commercial, string them all together and make a serviceable DVD. Can't imagine why trying it with a half-hour more information would make such a difference.

I get what you're saying about all the compressing and decompressing, just don't get how to work around that so I can practice editing.

Thanks again,

Mike

> Thanks for the reply. It appears simple edits are beyond the capability -- at least, capacity -- of
> my G4 PowerMac

How did you jump to that conclusion?

Mike, slow down. You are making a few leaps and some of them are a bit misled.

> As a DVD can only hold 4.7gB, how is it that the outputted Quicktime file is almost 14gB
> (much too big for iMovie to upload and handle)???

I don't know about iMovie, but in video editing, 14GB is on the fat side but shouldn't be undoable. Unless iMovie has some limitations I didn't know about.

For best results, when extracting the six hours on the DVD, you should have put In-Out points in MPEG Streamclip (with overlaps) to break down the six hours into manageable chunks. As Nick pointed out, your file seems too small for two hours, and at any rate, you should really break the two hours down into 15-minute reels. It takes just a few minutes more to do it, and saves you much more pain later on.

Plus, your extraction of two hours of DVD content probably took a few hours, and if the process had failed or the computer had crashed over that time, you would have gotten an incomplete, unusable file at the end and would have to start from scratch. Doing 15-minute chunks would have allowed you to get the footage in gradually and safely, plus it's better to work with smaller files.

What settings did you use in MPEG Streamclip to perform the extraction/export? What media drive are you using?


www.derekmok.com

Yeah, all this compression / extraction is very bad for the footage. It's like taking an elephant, turning it into a bandicoot, then putting it into a box and taking it to the Zoo where you turn it into a pair of bears and then expect them to breed correctly. It's no longer an elephant, a bandicoot or even a real pair of bears. Chances of getting a cub are pretty small.

Uh. OK. Obviously I'm going for the most obscure reference of the month, but the point is, the workflow is bad. It's not your machine's fault.

Jude-

Bandicoot? I could go to Wikipedia, but I have a feeling that you will have a MUCH more entertaining definition.

-Vance

Thanks for the info, Derek! As soon as you pointed out working with smaller bites it made sense (unlike Jude's bandicotes/elephants/bears reference. LOL!)

I'll give it a try.

Best,

Mike

P.S. BTW, Jude, telling a newbie he's doing it/thinking it wrong isn't really the best way to get him to do it right if you don't say why or how to correct it; but I did appreciate the zoo analogy...

Jude did the story because suggestions have already been made. She's actually a lot more patient than most of us are.

If you're serious about learning editing, you should probably just learn Final Cut Pro. iMovie is for consumers, and I suspect it won't benefit you all that much as part of a learning curve. In fact, it may confuse you as to some of the basics. It's different from mastering Avid first and then also learning Final Cut, or the other way around. Mastering the Avid or FCP first has enormous uses for the future no matter which one you go with first; I personally don't see that benefit to mastering iMovie, and it's in the initial stages of learning editing that some of your most beneficial explorations and experiments occur. You'd want to do that in a software with more depth.


www.derekmok.com

Quote
Derek sez
iMovie is for consumers, and I suspect it won't benefit you all that much as part of a learning curve. In fact, it may confuse you as to some of the basics.

I can vouch for this, as I have been down both roads. You might learn a sense of pacing with iMovie, just because it's editing, but that's about all that would translate. The workflow in FCP is far more intuitive, and much more powerful, and bears little relationship to iMovie.

Scott

Vance, a Bandicoot is like a Bandicost.