Lost. Any and all advice - I'm ears.

OK. Specs:

G5 dual 2.7 8GB DDR SDRAM OS 10.4.11
FCP MOTION COLOR DVDSP ETC
APPLE 30" CINEMA SCREEN
SONY COLOR MONITOR
3 EXTERNAL LACIE DRIVE (1BIGGER DISK EXTREME 1TB) & (2 1TB)

Alright.

My problem. Which at the moment literally has my hands shaking as I type.

Quick facts.
Over 25 hours of DVCAM tape imported into Hard drive. (Bigger Disk Extreme tb)
Another 30 hours of P2 card footage on another hard drive. (1 tb)

I then started working in FCP with the movie - this all started a year ago.
Since then things have been moving along well.
First time editing.
FCP moving fast. Seamless going back and forth with Motion. SP2 has had its issues - but making it work.
Everything fast - and no real complaints other than SP2 having issues at times.

Cut to - Sunday.

I had a festival invite me to submit the first 21 minutes of the movie by last Monday - and if they liked it - they would forgo the fact the movie was not done - as long as I would guarantee the movie be finished by Sept 15th. I did not intend to go the festival route - but I knew the people involved with festival - and it was in the city where we filmed the movie - so - great.

No problem - so I took the last 4 weeks and got the movie pretty close to done. FX and all - minues COlor correcting and just patched in via FCP for now.

So - last Saturday - I go to export the movie to QT - and the first couple of time I do - just as FCP task/job bar got to around 80% complete - FCP would crash.

So - I thought well hell - let's start it up and try again - same result.

Then - I thought well - the movie is huge -

(I have the edit set up this way: 15 Scenes - and within those 15 scenes - the sub scenes.)

- and a guy who knows FCP - says to me - look - take your 5 scenes you are sending - copy and paste them in a new sequence file all under 1 tab - and then just export to QT.

I do this - the make a new sequence - but it in my sequence order - pull the 5 scenes in - and suddenly - my mouse pointer is dragging slow - and then - it crashes.

Then - my movie will not open at all... it would load all the way up to video processing - and then snap off.

Ok. So after 7 hours of trying everything - and time running out to my deadline - I go screw it - I open the last save before I made the new sequence... it opens. But of course - render on all motion scenes gone. Frantically re-render... now - 36 hours - no sleep - and only a few hours to go before send off deadline.

I grab the footage - sans some Motion FX - as some were gone in the old version I pulled up.... and I had no time to reconnect them and re-render

Anyway - by the time this all got done.

Missed deadline. Felt horrible - and stupid. Ok. Have coffee. Relax.

Ok. I shower - go screw it - get back to Mac and find out what is wrong... and here is the tell I think:

Now my project opens - but if I do anything it says - out of memory.

So I open up the hard drives - plenty of space in all "except" I find render files everywhere - versions of my movie from a year ago - with their own render files - and copies of render files - and on all three Hard Drives - and some on my Mac Hard drive.

So - I'm like... what is going on.

I know it's user error - set up wrong from the beginning I am sure.
And I don't need to feel any worse or stupid at the moment.

WHat I do need - is someone or something to talk me through this - tell me where to start - what to do - because I have spent the last 3 hours just staring at the screen going - what do I do. Where do I go. How do I fix this.

If it means I have to physically move files - and re-render the whole damned movie - fine - I've accepted that week long process. How do I find out what files have duplicated - which version of the movie to delete and keep... I'm a little overwhelmed right now.

I would pay someone in a heartbeat to come by and take an hour and look at this and go - do this this and this - but - like most Indie people - I always have about a hundred bucks in the bank - and that's it.

I don't know what to do folks - it's my - working everyday for the last year edit/movie - and right now - I'm at a loss.

I know the movie is there. I can pull it up - what I feel is - there are so many duplications of the movie - 7 different Render folders - 6 different scratch folders - render files not in any folder. That somehow I am going to have to delete old versions of the movie - delete the multiple render files that are copies of render files - but how I go about figuring out which files go to the current version of the movie I am working and which ones go to last weeks version - or last months version... I don't have a clue.

Just a week ago - running fast and smooth - and within one day - when I copied the first 5 scenes and pasted them back within the timeline - in a subfolder...

Just someone tell me where to start and where to go.

I can't lose this last year of work. I just can't.

It's a structure/setup problem... and how to clean this up and get it organized at the current state... I just don't know what to do.

The crap thing is - I know - the right person could open this all up and go - ok - move all tis to here - save this here - delete all this - and bam - your back onto working and finishing your movie - and from now on - always save here and here and that it.

Where do I start. What do I do.

I'm lost.

Oklahoma Ward
www.myspace.com/isolation2007

Oh - and just to add - here is something else I think I figured out -

I named my project FinalEdit1 a year ago - now within that year - 7 or 8 times - the movie crashed - and when the project would open back up - I would simply open up the last save point - which would have a number like this FinalEdit1-345656_888 (some large FCP number) - and thus - I would have to re-render the "new" project and then I was up and running fast - whenever I opened FCP - I would always go open last project - and it would show that current FinalEdit1 (followed by large number). BUT - what I think has happened - is - all those old versions - the FInalEdit 4436 FInalEdit1_4437 and on and on - are still on the computer - complete with their own complete set of render files...

So essentially - I think - I have spread out over all my hard drives - 7 or 8 different version of the movie - all with their own complete set of render files....

Now - how I go about deleting all those - and just leaving my current project alive.... which now is FInalEdit1-32425354_234234 - and has it's own render files and such - well - I have spent all night trying to figure a way... and i don't know...

That's where I'm at - at the moment.

WOW! With all that spread out over several FW drives; you really can't move anything around because it would require reconnection.

Problem is, you seem to be against a hard wall! Sounds like you learned a lot with your very first edit. One thing that is hindsight now, but don't let a project cross volumes, and if that is necessary, break it up into Sequences. it really sounds like you didn't understand media management from the start.

BUT -

Now, how to recover? if,as you say; the latest project file cause a crash when outputting to QT, then you might have a corrupted file, somewhere in the mix. Finding that will be a real bear unless you are extremely lucky.

Your edit decision was in error as I see it because you should have "built" those 5 scenes as separate sequences and combined them, at the end. For simplicity, you could them open each scene back up and debug or reedit as necessary.

I can't really advise you on a possible "fix", not knowing the problem intimately, but in the past when a project has gotten too big, I will set In-Out points in the Timeline and cut-past that much to a new sequence. Kind of breaking up the whole into manageable chunks.

Don't know if this helps but I wish you well in getting this out.

Thanks for the reply John - being self taught does certainly have it's flaws I am learning - the crap thing is - it was all working fine until I added the the new nested sequence tab.

What I am considering now - since I am down anyway - is somehow deleting everything and just re-rendering the whole movie - but - if I do that - I want to make sure I am set up correctly so I don't run into this problem again. I mean - I look at it this way - I have 3 1 tb external Hard drives - and - I can get another lacie 2tb loaned to me for a years use... so - this project has been imported from HD down to just DV - so it's not that huge - but I do use a tone of filters and FX - it's just - it ran so fast as of even Saturday - anyway - that all just has to be enough space and all - hell one of my tb(s) has over 600g available as of now...

Well, yeah - I'm kinda screwed I think unless I can find someone to look at it and tell me what to keep and what to throw out and how to re-set this up correctly so I can get back on track.

It does go to show - setting up correctly from the beginning is the key - the thing that gets me is - I thought I had since it had been working great from a year ago - and now - it finally comes home that all this time it was not doing so... it's like - and I wish this could be - and I know it sounds stupid - but I wish there was a way to clearly see what/where specific FCP renders go to what project... I mean - they all go to this project - for it;s the only thing on my G5 - but - I am pretty sure over half the render files are going to older versions of the movie - I wish it was as simple as going - I'm renaming the versions of the movie that opens - saving it under a new name to a new file - on a new hard drive - rendering it - all on the 2tb system - then going in a deleting everything on the other 3 hard drives - but how I do that - I have not got a clue.

Not a clue man. What scares the crap outta me - is deleting the cut of the movie - that terrifies. Literally I just don't have the strength to re-cut the whole thing from scratch.

Well - I have a phone calls out - and have posted on every site I could find - maybe someone has something - so far - it's been nil until you - so thank you for the reply - nice to know someone is listening.

Thanks.

Oklahoma, try to write fewer "woe is me" comments. It just distracts from seeing exactly what you're trying to describe. Remember that we're trying to troubleshoot your issue long-distance. You have to describe things concisely and clearly, and the "screenplay" quirks you had in your post just made it hard for me to see exactly what you're trying to do and what's going wrong.

Firstly, most render files can be deleted using Tools - Render Manager. There's no way to tell if a render file is being used or if it's from an old version, but render files are considered expendable, so when in doubt, ditch them all and re-render. Render files are unstable anyway; you shouldn't be expecting them to last more than a week or two without going corrupt or giving you some little headache or other.

In your case, however, if you're not good at file management, you should physically go into the render folders to make sure you didn't send anything there, by mistake, anything which isn't an actual expendable file (eg. clip, music file, graphic etc.).

I disagree with John; just because files are spread out over multiple drives doesn't mean you can't move them. However, when your deadline is past, you should probably get an experienced editor/assistant editor/Final Cut expert for a day to re-organize your files into shape. You cannot make a bad system good without some media reconnection, moving things around, and in some cases even renaming things. But this takes an experienced and careful FCP operator or you may lose editing work.

Personally I think you have bigger issues than that. Bad file management makes it hard to find things, but should not slow your system down to the extent you're describing. How large is your project file? How full are your drives -- all your drives, including internal and system drives? (Give us actual numbers, not "I have plenty of space", which tells us nothing diagnostically)


www.derekmok.com

OK Derek. Just the facts.

Deadline is long gone.

Now I am just trying to move and start this project with the file management set up correctly.

Now how I clean house and KEEP the cut of the movie. I do not know.

At this point I do not care about the render files. If I have to re-render the complete movie - I will do so.

Mac Internal HD #1 is capacity is 372.49 available is 372.42 gb
Mac Internal HD #2 is capacity is 372.49 available is 149.07

Lacie HD 1: capacity 931.4 available 650.51
Lacie HD 2: capacity is 931.52 available 209.55
Lacie HD 3 capacity is 931.46 available is 235.56

Oh - and Derek - I don't know how to find out how large my project is.

Tell me how to figure that - and I'll share that.

First, thanks for sharing a realworld conundrum.

Looks like all the drives are good for capacity and I would use any of them for DV25 in a heartbeat. I agree with Derek, there are probably other issues, and reconnection will be order of the day.

Do you have DiskWarrior? You want to treat each of your media drive directories for prophylaxis, assuming they're not striped together.

Here's a question: when you open a drive, and drill into the Capture Scratch folder-- and then into the <project name> folder within-- do you see another capture Scratch folder in there? And when you drill into that, do you see another identical <project name> folder in there?

If you see this nested pattern, clean each internal folder out, drive by drive. Move all those nested media files into the <project name> folder just under the hood of the root Capture Scratch. Then start a Reconnect. (At least this should go much faster.)

- Loren
Today's FCP keytip:

Cycle bin views with Shift - H !

Final Cut Studio 2 KeyGuide? Power Pack.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

Look at the project file in the Finder and look at the Size column.

Your drives are okay storage-wise. However, it seems to me you're chaining multiple FireWire drives. Drives over 500GB don't chain well, 1TB drives even worse, and Lacies are the absolute bottom of the barrel. I'm suspecting your problem is that.

How long is the final cut of the film?

I'd try a few things.

1. First, backup your project file to a safe place. NOT any drive you have connected while you edit. Date- and time-stamp the backup and move it to an external storage device such as a data CD, data DVD, or USB flash stick.
2. Now copy your active project file to your internal drive.
3. DISCONNECT your Lacies. Yes, all of them. Don't even leave them plugged in -- pull the cables.
4. Now open the active project file. I'm guessing it will open up, just with the media offline. Save it under a new name in the internal drive.
5. Now quit FCP and re-connect the Lacie drives. Open up the renamed active project file and do a media reconnect and try to find your files.

If your file management isn't good, the media reconnect may be difficult. However, the benefit of the above test is that it's non-destructive. Renaming, resaving the project file and forcing it to disconnect from your media "flushes" the project file and often fixes glithces. If you can't locate all your files during the media reconnect, you still have the old project-file backup, which will remember all the locations of your media without a reconnect. So if the test fails for any reason, you can simply open up the old, unchanged project file and the worst you've done is not fix the problem. Nothing should be lost that isn't already lost before the test.

Unfortunately you have one of those issues that can be caused by many things, and if you're not sufficiently aware of which files are in your system, where they are, and how they're organized, it's hard to pin down. This is why it pays to have a trained assistant at least in the beginning of your project.


www.derekmok.com

While the classic Charlie Roberts trick of disconnecting your media drives to open a stubborn project is good, be aware of Derek's (and others) complete, utter bias against LaCie drives! Use them wisely, maintain their directories, and above all, plug them into clean power sources, and they won't bite you.

Don't attack the drives first, check your storage structure on each drive. This is the root of common file management issues, in my experience.

Re-reading your saga, another thought-- when you do restore a project to an older version with the funny gobbledegook suffix, you should explicitly Save Project As... to a fresh file, such as <projectname> with a letter, like myproject_A.fcp.

Derek's other comments are good, so pay attention. ;-)

- Loren
Today's FCP keytip:

Cycle bin views with Shift - H !

Final Cut Studio 2 KeyGuide? Power Pack.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

Thanks for the words Loren.

I am sorry - I do not know what Disk Warrior is - so - no I don't have that. I can get that - if that is something that will help me.

I am willing to follow your lead here - and move everything - but I have a few questions before I start this:

Please - ignore the simplistic question - My confusion is here - my project was originally named

FINALCUT1

now - that name changed throughout the year as 4 or 5 times - the system crashed and i had to go back into my auto-save vault and reopen my last save point that would open cleanly.

As I did this over the year - the name FINALEDIT1 automatically changed to - lets say - FINALEDIT1_07-14-08_0333

From that point on - I would always and only work on that new file "and I assumed" project name.

So when you say - open up the project name - here is what I see in the hard drive -

When I finally see

FinalEdit1 - the folder - it is linked to

Capture scratch - open it to
render files - open it to
FinalEdit 1 "again" - which opens to
Audio render files
Render Files (again) - which opens to
4 different FinalEdit1(s) - now these are the FinalEdits with the numbers behind them - each one a version of the movie of the past - versions that when crashed - I never opened again - and thus would keep building on the"new" FinalEdit1_423455 number - now here is my question - one of those are of the most recent version I worked on.

Do I just look at that as my new named project - the FinalEdit1_970598837

or - am what I am missing is - that name is just a folder within my original FinalEdit1

Does that question make sense? I am trying to be as specific as possible.

Another words - I'm not sure what FCP has renamed my project... my fail-safe has always been this - I always and simply just opened FCP and hit the open recent project - and opened the FinalEdit1_13423324 number that was my current project.

WHen that version went bad - I would go back into auto-save - open up the last version - which would have the new name and number - and for months be sailing along.

So - I am willing to go in and clean this up re-arrange - but - do I now consider my last opened project name

the FINALEDIT1_324255 my project... or is that just a subfolder under my original named project FInalEdit.

Without seeing I know it's a pain - so thank you for baring with me on this.

Ok - that answered that question - so I will save as and rename the current version.

So - I can safely delete the old FCP versions as long as I keep the new named project.

And the Lacie thing - I love them - had the one for over 3 years now.

But - I know many people hate them.

Ok - getting coffee and going to rip into this.

Thank you for the time.

I mean that.

I love these kind of jobs. Finding a way to make order out of chaos. Bit hard to do remotely though.

Here's what I would do.

Find all the project versions and back them up to a thumbdrive.

Find the project version I wanted to work with and rename this the name of the film and the date so - Something Fishy 17 7 08.

Delete all other versions. (You have backup, so no need to panic)

Find and delete ALL render files, and audio render files. These are expendable and just taking up space and making things confusing. Also delete any empty folders after this is done.

Breathe.

Here's where it could get difficult. Have you renamed any media after it was captured? or, worse, is all your media named 'untitled'? This is important to know before going further.

Thank you Derek. Will do. And yes - I am do know it would have been nice to be able to afford a pro to come in for a day and set it up. (not being said sarcastically there - just agreeing)

The price for being and Indie filmmaker. Money.

Thank you for the advice.

Oh - the film cut is 110 minutes.

The project file is 616 gb

No Way - 616GB? No way.

Jude - excuse the simple here - thumbdrive - you mean just another external hard drive?

Now this sounds like something I want to do - clean house and re-order.

So back everything up in another HardDrive - sans the one that I renamed.

nothing is named untitled - wait let me check that... are you asking if I renamed as Imported - no -I simply put in the DVCAM tape and the p2 cards - the P@cards just imported the whole cards into the hard drive and did not name them. The DVCAM tapes - I captured and labeled them as the came in - Len drinking coffe1 Len drinking coffee 2 and on and on.

Well lol - when I click on the original file name of the original movie - way back to a year ago - which inside that file is all those autosave version of the movie I am currently working - all their render files - and the current version I am working - yeah - it say 616gb... see - that's what I was trying to get across earlier - I think the problem is thus - I have multiple copies of the movie - with all their own render files - and all under that one project name.... it literally took 20 minutes for the project to open everytime - and then it would zip along fine - but opening was a time.

Well lol - when I click on the original file name of the original movie - way back to a year ago - which inside that file is all those autosave version of the movie I am currently working - all their render files - and the current version I am working - yeah - it say 616gb... see - that's what I was trying to get across earlier - I think the problem is thus - I have multiple copies of the movie - with all their own render files - and all under that one project name.... it literally took 20 minutes for the project to open everytime - and then it would zip along fine - but opening was a time.

You're confused. There's no way a project file can ever get to 616GB. It would have crashed your FCP long before that.

At 110 minutes, let's say 50 per cent DV and 50 per cent DVCPro HD, the media for your film should be more like 60 to 75GB. There's no way in hell a project file can surpass the size of its own media tenfold. 600GB is 600,000MB; feature documentaries would get 200MB, 300MB project files that take between three and eight minutes to open. So you're saying your project file is as large as 2,000 feature documentaries?

> The price for being and Indie filmmaker. Money.

That's no excuse. Unless you like the danger of losing your edits. There are people who are better trained in FCP who are starting out and willing to work for free. Take some time and find them. Ploughing through the darkness with almost no rudimentary knowledge of file management and FCP operations is suicide.

Seriously, man, I think you need to find somebody to bail you out. Not just long-distance online. Post something on Mandy, find somebody with Final Cut and troubleshooting experience, pay him/her something. Many of our suggestions, while sound, can also wreak havoc if you don't know what you're doing. I don't feel like you're ready to do surgery on your own project and file structure.

Oh yeah, and backup your stuff. Anything -- media, project, documents -- that isn't from a timecoded tape.


www.derekmok.com

OK, but a project file is just like a list of instructions about what goes where. If one of these goes over, say 120MB, it starts to get slow.

It's the file that you double click to open the project. If you single click it to select it in the finder and then go to File > Get Info you'll get a list of information about the file, including how big it is.

It's great that nothing has been renamed and nothing is called Untitled. That means you can move things around and then FCP will be able to reconnect them based on their name.

A thumbdrive is one of those little USB drives that can fit in your pocket or on a keyring. You can get ones that are 2GB for under $20 these days. Extremely handy for backing up project files.

So - backup all your project files, then delete them from the harddrive. Actually, to be safe, leave two copies of the project on the hard drive, just in case you don;t back up correctly. Leave the project you want to work with, and one other that is recent to that.

Then clean out the sludge (render files and folders)

Do not delete any media.

Well Derek - I agree about the getting someone here - I have a call into Larry Jordan - waiting for a call back.

But I did want to try here first and see if I could get some advice - to see if there was a way to single out the current project - and delete everything else.

Understood. Then that file is 21.8 g

If I can't afford to get someone in here to walk me through this - then this is what I will try - I'll save the last 2 versions on my hard drive - rename the current one - delete everything - sans the media - and go for the re-connect.

Thanks for taking the time Jude. I know it gets frustrating to some to be handling a low tech person.

So thank you.

Yeah, this is a problem not solved online, or by Larry on the phone. I doubt Larry would take this case as it has the potential to be catastrophic. You need experienced eyes on your computer.

Michael Horton
-------------------

21 GB is still way to big. You mean 21MB, right?

Since you are so low tech (I don't mean that in a nasty way) maybe it would be better to just move all your projects to a folder rather than delete them. I'd hate for you to lose your cut just because you weren't sure what you were doing.

Just delete the render files. No media. Move all project files to a folder to get them out of the way, except the one you want to work on.

It's true you should have a hands on person there, but if you're going to do this anyway, go slowly.

Well if John won't - then I'll try Mad Cow Studios here in L.A.

If they won't - or can't - I'll just keep searching.

I've printed out your posts - if all else fails - as in - I can't find someone to physically be here - I'll just have a stiff shot - then try it. If it works - great.

If something goes wrong - so be it.

I'll redo whatever has to be done.

Lesson learned 10 fold.

I'll post back with what happens. And tell the solution and what went wrong - feel fine being the poster boy for what not to do ;-)

> I'll save the last 2 versions on my hard drive - rename the current one - delete everything - sans
> the media - and go for the re-connect.

No, don't delete anything. Since you're not fully aware of what's going on inside the computer, you have to tread lightly. Once you delete something, it's gone. And the fact is, unless you're running out of space, multiple project files should not be causing problems.

Hold your nerve and wait for experienced on-site help.

My instinct would be to find somebody who has a lot of storage -- say a RAID array that can hold all the media from your drives. Copy everything onto that person's storage. Whatever troubleshooter you get, if s/he is working on a duplicate copy, that frees him/her up to do whatever's necessary to reorganize the files. Even an expert won't be able to do too much if it's a situation of "Oh, I'm not sure we can delete this", "Ah, I'm not sure I can rename that".

Once you have a complete duplicate of everything, my instinct would first be to backup and rename the project file (eg. "Titanic 02 Reorganized.proj". Then I might use Media Manager to create a new (NOT trimming the pre-existing) set of media that contains only your cut. If that's successful, export a self-contained, full-quality movie file as an insurance policy. Then I would go back to the non-trimmed project file and start moving and firebombing.


www.derekmok.com

Madcow is good so is anyone here

[www.lafcpug.org]

Michael Horton
-------------------

Well - Michael - I would pay just about anyone here something to come over and help. That's why I came on here - if I didn't make that clear from the onset - I'm sorry. I was hoping for someone to say - call so and so - and or - call me offline and we'll talk about what it would cost.

As for now - I'm open to talk with anyone.

As for right now - Larry just contacted me and had me try some things via e-mail. They helped FCP run fatser - and my computer run faster - but - it did not solve the organiztion problem - nor the file sizes - which are each over 100 g(s) according to the autosave vault project names.

Anyway - Larry(s) partner also informed me he is traveling at the moment.

So it would be days before he is back I am sure - I spoke to a female on the phone who told me he is doing seminars somewhere... so - if someone lives in the LA area - and would be willing to come here for a personal guru fro an hour or two - I'm all willing to talk with anyone.

I'm in West Hollywood. I'll pay - I don't have a lot - but I can discuss on the phone with someone.

My personal e-mail is arenagallery@aol.com and I can hit someone back with number or I can call them to discuss.

I came here for any and all help with this - trust me on that one.

At this point - I will listen to anyone.

That's a good idea with the raid system - I'll get on the phone and I know someone who might let me borrow one for a dew weeks. Thank you for that suggestion Derek.

Just to update everyone - I really appreciate all the follow up e-mails and all the offers to come over and help. I mean that. In fact - I found 3 really good compositors for some FX on the movie from e-mails coming from this site and I think something really nice will work out there.

As for the problem - I have someone coming over Saturday to fix the problem - and will share what the problem was ( other than user "newb" syndrome ) is there is any other reason - and - what the solution was/is.

I am glad I was pointed towards this site - so fa - the ONLY site to have attempted to help out on the problem.

Thanks all.

Oklahoma Ward