Editing a Short shot on 16mm

Hi guys,

im having a little bit of a headache getting my brain around a short film i'll be editing in june here in malaysia. the director and dop have decided to shoot on 16mm film. the telecine house will be giving me a digibeta pal format (not sure if it will be anaphormic of not yet) and then i need to give them a edl so that the color grading can be done on film, then i get a digibeta back where i have to make a dvd master. so here is my questions

1) do i have to use cinema tools to take the digibeta footage and convert it back to 24 frames before i start editing?
2) what would be the best settings to edit the footage on and/or do the dvd from, ie 8bit uncompressed or 10bit uncompressed as the director wants the best quality she can get?
3) any helpful tips or tricks to make this edit as painless as possible as this is my first time dealing with anything shot on film. (ive always been in the digital world so this film thing is kind of scaring me a little)

cheers
james

Number one thing is find a lab with FCP experience. Get that and they will do all of the tricky stuff for you. If not it will be hard.

Noah

Final Cut Studio Training, featuring the HVX200, EX1, EX3, DVX100, DVDSP and Color at [www.callboxlive.com]!
Author, RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera available now at: [www.amazon.com].
Editors Store- Gifts and Gear for Editors: [www.editorsstore.com]

Quote

do i have to use cinema tools to take the digibeta footage and convert it back to 24 frames before i start editing?

yes, and no.
you can do the "Conforming" in FCP now.
it is fast and simple.

you may NOT need a cinemtools database.
that would only be required if you needed to track something other than TC,
like the film's key-code,
or Audio TC if you are having rushes synched in telecine.

Quote

what would be the best settings to edit the footage on and/or do the dvd from, ie 8bit uncompressed or 10bit uncompressed as the director wants the best quality she can get?

Prores, non-HQ,
this is an off-line, and you wont see the difference anyway.

DVDs are a little tricky.
you will have to make PAL DVDS from a copy of your film conformed back to 25fps.
the audio will need pitching to compensate.
get the audio people to do that if you want it done well,

here is a quote from an experienced sound guy here in Aus:

Quote
Michael Gissing
User Name: Michael Gissing

MPEX3 (which can be licensed in Pyramix or Nuendo or as a stand alone)does a great job of changing speed without pitch etc. 23.976 to 25 is 4.1%. 24 to 25 is 4%.

If you want a result that is best then send the aiff file to a sound pro with either MPEX3 or Pitch n' Time. Audacity might do an OK job but us audio pros will hear it. If your show has music then not changing pitch will shift everything approx 3/4 semi tone sharp. Ouch!

for NTSC DVDs, conform your final file to 23.98

Quote

any helpful tips or tricks to make this edit as painless as possible as this is my first time dealing with anything shot on film. (ive always been in the digital world so this film thing is kind of scaring me a little)

what noah said,
and/or
get an assistant who knows the ropes.

otherwise keep reading the manual.

some tips:

dont go anamorphic.
go letterboxed, and put all your burn-ins in the letterbox.
you will need burn-ins

the rule for this kind of work (conforming to 24)
used to be DONT use subclips.
FCP would lose track of the timecode, and your EDLs would be ng.

they SAY you can use subclips now, but i would be vary wary of them.
ESPECIALLY if you have multiclips.
either TEST the process with subclips, or just dont use them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the following notes are relevant if you use a Cinema Tools database.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i still work in the "old" way:
no subclips,
which means a FILE, a CLIP, and a DATABASE ENRTY for each and every slate & take.

simplest way to do this for you means spending a bit more $$ in Telecine.

get them to stop on every shot and enter a log note to a "Flex" file,
with scene & take number

back in the cutting rom, you get that file,
import it into FCP (Import Cinema Tools Telecine Log)
and simultaneously create a new CinemTools Database.
you can now batch capture into FCP.

i find it simple to create a new CT database every day.
it's much easier for dealing with any issues (incorrect clip names, for instance)

combine them into one master database when you are locked off.


"flex file" is often used as a generic name for the files made in Telecine, but it is also a specific type of file.
ALE is the format that works best with FCP.

if you dont spend the $$ in telecine, you will need more time in post,
or DEFINTILY an assistant,
as they will have to manually log each clip into CT.
this is where working with subclips would be a timesaver, as you'd have less CT database entries,

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if you DONT need a CT database, and don't want to use subclips
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

then you need a separate file & clip for each slate & take
either log & capture,
or capture whole tapes, and STILL AT 25fps break up & re-name in an FCP timeline before batch exporting.

bring the new clips back into FCP, and NOW you can conform to 24.



working with the strange beast known as 24@25 can be a bit frustrating in the timeline.
i often move clips, or make trims based on me adding in and out points to figure out a duration.
in a 24@25 timeline your in/out duration is not a true reflection of the change you need to make.
you have to shorten the duration by one frame for every second.
if the in/outs tells you 2.06,
you move or ripple by 2.04.

you can simply choose to NOT work with a TC rate of 24@25 while you edit,
but before you make your EDL,
you MUST go and change the TC Rate of all your clips, and your final sequences to 24@25.


good luck with the project,
nick

Quote

the director and dop have decided to shoot on 16mm film. the telecine house will be giving me a digibeta pal format and then i need to give them a edl so that the color grading can be done on film, then i get a digibeta back where i have to make a dvd master. so here is my questions

of course, if all you are getting back is a digibeta for a DVD, then why go back to the film at all???

hi guys,

thanks for all the advice. i really appreciate it. i'll know more details when the final rehearsals are done on saturday. i think the director wants both a film print and a dvd of the short so she can submit it to film festivals, so that is why they want to color grade on film, but im not 100% sure. the details arent all there yet and i know the budget is very tight as the director is personally financing the short. i guess i got to do some testing before i actually get the footage so i dont muck it up big time when i get the actual stuff.....yikes. again thanks for all the advice...i know i'll be back soon needing more when i start getting the footage into FCP.

Oh i just had a thought....if the film lab can give me the stuff on say a hard disk would that cut out some of the problems with the digibetas and the 24fps and 25fps converting?

cheers
james

"that is why they want to color grade on film"

ok, thought that might be the case.
just to nit-pick, they wont be grading on film (well, id; be surprised if they did)
most likely the grade will happen in 2k space.

i would have thought that maybe working in HD realm would e a bit cheaper, and simpler all round,
but theses days there are millions of ways to skin the cat.

"if the film lab can give me the stuff on say a hard disk would that cut out some of the problems with the digibetas and the 24fps and 25fps converting?"

maybe, but talk to them.
how does it get to the hard disk?
most likely it will go to digibeta, and THEY will do the capturing.
(this is what happened on my last film)

or maybe the lab is more savy, and can telecine direct to hard drive.
that isn't too common in my experience.

or maybe they'd telecine to HD at true 24fps, and capture it for you.


but the 24@25 workflow isn't that much of a "problem", IMO, just something to get your head around.


cheers,
nick