Post wants 1080/60i .... But I want 720/24pN Overcranking!

I want to shoot 720/24pN at 60 fps for sloo mo. But the post house will only take 1080/60i. I deliver a hard drive to client after shoot. I carry a laptop w/ FCP w/ me and shoot on an HPX500. What is best work flow to upconvert for them yet shoot slow mo (sports scenes). They are Avid

That's an upconvert and a frame-rate convert, I'd look into plugins from Nattress for that. Though really- who ever heard of a post house that *only* takes 1080/60i? Good luck sticking to that edict and staying in business long in this world.

Noah

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>That's an upconvert and a frame-rate convert

Not exactly. You don't frame rate convert if you want the slow mo frames. You will need to conform it to 60i before doing the up-conversion to 1080, preferably hardware here, like the Kona IO HD, if you can go back out to tape, otherwise go into Compressor, render, and keep swearing for 2 days while you cross convert. You get 50% slow mo with this. If they want it on P2, you should be able pump that out via HD-SDI back to the camera, but you lose a generation.

And accepting only a specific standard is a bad way to operate for a post facility.



www.strypesinpost.com

Just to add to the scolding....

If your client...or the people handling the post...say that they want you to shoot and deliver a certain format, you'd better darn well shoot that format. If not, they will not hire you again. If you did that to me, I would certainly not hire you, and you might get an earful from me too. If they want slo-mo, then you can tell them what you can do. But don't just say "I am going to do this."

Avid (funny that this is a question on the FCP User Group) works with the MXF files natively. So you give them the card, they work with the files on the card. You want to somehow shoot 720p60...then convert that to 1080i60 with slow motion (again, did they ask you to do this?), and then write it back to the card as MXF files? Possible...yes. But the results won't be stellar without hardware...and even with hardware how will you get it back to the card upconverted?

You can import the footage...convert it to slow motion 720p 23.98, and then record back to the camera via SDI and use the card again to capture. But you will need a Kona 3 or LHi or Matrox MXO2 that will cross convert 720p to 1080i on output...and then a camera that has SDI input, and I'm sure that the HPX-170 has SDI, but output only. You cannot cross convert 720p to 1080i via firewire...so then you'd have to convert to that format with Compressor, and there is a generation lost, and the frame rate conversion might look funky...you have to test all your settings to get the best one.

Point is...this is a bag of hurt. Shoot what they ask you to shoot. Point out that you think that it would be cool if you could do what you want to do...but if they say "no, just get us what we want..." do that, so you can continue to work and make money.


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> Point is...this is a bag of hurt. Shoot what they ask you to shoot. Point out that you think that it
> would be cool if you could do what you want to do...but if they say "no, just get us what we
> want..." do that, so you can continue to work and make money.

True, that. It's their money, so they have the right to choose whatever path they want to take, even if you don't think it's the optimal one. It's your job to suggest better ways, not make the decision for them. It's especially problematic in your case if you try to deliver 720 when they asked for 1080.

If something does go boom because of their bad decisions, then you get to silently hide your "I told you so" looks...and earn more money by fixing the problem.

It sounds more like a communication problem in your case. Did the client OK the post house's specs? Or does the client actually know about the formatting conflict? Sounds like you need all parties on the same conference call to straighten out what you want to do.


www.derekmok.com

Yes, complying with delivery specs is important. The other guys have covered that admirably.

If you really want this workflow, I'd do it in four stages.

1. Shoot 720p60.

2. Upconvert to 1080p60 in software in an intermediate I-frame format like uncompressed or ProRes. (I'm aware of any hardware that can do this, 'cause 1080p60 is not a video format. But maybe there's a hardware option.)

3. Conform your 1080p60 to 1080p24.

4. Add 3:2 pulldown to your 1080p24 material to turn it into 1080i60.

Final Cut Pro can do none of these things for you by itself. The upconvert must be done with Compressor or another conversion software tool. The conform is done in Cinema Tools. Adding pulldown is something Final Cut doesn't do internally, but your I/O board can do it if you lay off to SR and didge it back in as 60i.

...and then you are left with a QT file in FCP and the client is using Avid. Or you are left with a tape format and the client wants P2...or is expecting P2. And you have gone to HERCULEAN efforts and tremendous cost to get shoot the format you wanted, and to get them the format they want.

Not worth it.


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Oh, sorry. I totally missed the "they are Avid" bit at the end.

Forget what I said. Give your client what they want, don't get clever.

fd, why don't you just rent an Arri 2c with a standard variable motor and shoot 35mm film. I'll sell you the short ends at 15 cents per foot, processing is 10 cents per foot at DeLuxe, and telecine is $125 at Magic Film in Burbank. The cost of doing this is a fraction of what you'll be spending shooting in digital, and the results are highly questionable.

Just a thought. Email me for specific suggestions: vic@felliniesque.com

Probably because that would require hiring film lenses, a film sound crew and a film DoP, Vic.

Oh, that's right; I was thinking along the lines of MOS shooting.

Actually my first 35mm production, I hid the Nagra behind a tree and dangled the mic from a branch above my two actors. I turned the Nagra on and ran and turned on the Arri 2c in the Cine 60 Blimp, which was on sticks with the O'Connor 100 head. I then grabbed the slate and ran in front of the camera and slated the scene. I tossed the slate out of the way and ran behind the Arri 2c and called out to my actors, "Aaaaand, action!"

But I take it back, it's much easier to just turn a digital camera on and yell, "Action! We'll fix it in post!"

However, getting back to the thread's original question: I was able to slow down a scene I'd shot in HDV 1080i 60i with my Sony Z1U camera. I did it in FCP time remap I think. It worked pretty nice. It was my actress running away from a stalker. She turns around; there's an intriguing expression on her face. It was going by too fast in normal speed, so I wanted to slow it down. I'd never fiddled with slo-mo in FCP 5.04, but I was amazed how nice it turned out.

In the middle of the scene I slowed down about two seconds of the scene and then went back to the original speed. It looked like a moment frozen in time. It was amazingly effective and yet very subtle.

Could such a slo-mo work for the poster's purposes?

He's talking about shooting sports. I don't know if optical flow synthetic retiming (or, shudder, frame blending) would work for that.

oh, that's what I was doing.

well, shouldn't we mention a variable frame camera like the Varicam? There are other high crank camera also I'm sure...

Wow, it's amazing how a simple question can get so convoluted!! For all you "scolders" out there, yes, the client would LOVE to have slo mo if possible...... as long as it is deliver 1080/60i. That being said, I do appreciate everyone's feedback and always respect your answers and insight. Correct, I would NEVER do any of this without consulting with the client and testing the work-flow. I have a 10 year relationship with said client and do not intend to ruin it!!

I was really hoping there was an option inside FCP to do this, all software driven. No additional hardware required. Or I was hoping someone had an Avid solution (just "check" box Y and all should work!!)

My options are limited. I have to shoot P2 to meet time constraints of turnaround (not to mention cost of decks, rentals of varicams, HPG20, etc.) and deliver 1080/60i for post workflow.

Many have said Avid should be able to handle both on time-line. My client says no (we tried, believe me)......and they are doing the work so guess what...... no slo-mo for the time being!!

Thanks again everyone. For me, for now, it's case closed. Thank you all very much!

>I was really hoping there was an option inside FCP to do this, all software driven.

Yes, you can do it within FCS (cinema tools to conform, Compressor to upscale) but the quality won't be as good, or the rendering time may take too long, and also not every Avid guy knows how to injest a Quicktime and they'll blame it on FCP.



www.strypesinpost.com

Yes, agreed to all points!! Thanks again strypes. I still may try it just to see how long

Sorry, there is no Easy Button for this. Not when trying to use FCP to deliver media for use on an Avid. Upconverting is tricky, and add frame rate conversions (Avid doesn't play different frame rates AT ALL on the timeline) is tricky. But there are Avid ways to convert 720p60 to slow motion, but via third party software like Raylight.


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