Need your feedback on this trailer. It's one minute long. Thanks for looking.

>>> I still need to finish my trailer and market the movie. <<<

Good luck with that.

You know, Vic...you seem like a good soul on one hand, but aloof & nonchalant at the same time (all the LOL's you post are pretty tiresome IMHO). Sometimes nice guys finish last - especially in this industry. I would rather work with a totally involved Director & DP that I trust to get the shots than someone that agrees with what everyone else says about his work and changes it all based on the opinions of strangers. You gotta choose your battles, man. If you have strong convictions about what you shot and they contribute to your vision for your "film", why are you so quick to print this thread & change everything??? Choose your battles. Make a decision & stick to it. Don't be a jellyfish.

You need to start over with a clean slate: You need to write a script you BELIEVE IN, get a skeleton crew that BELIEVES IN WHAT YOU'RE DOING, get Actors that also BELIEVE IN IT, and SHOOT IT LIKE YOU MEAN IT. You are spending too much time on the technical stuff and NONE AT ALL on "steering the ship". Bad leadership = bad performances (even on multimillion dollar films).

Actors WANT to be guided (even Improvisational Actors). Just because there's no dialog, doesn't mean there's no clear motivation. "What is my initial motivation?" I was part of the Mental Floss Improv group at The Coconut Grove Theater back in the late 80's (I studied Acting for 9 years). There were 15 or 20 in my class. If a Director walked into class and announced that he was making a movie and who would be interested in being in it for no pay - just credit & copy...we ALL would have JUMPED at the chance. I also Acted FOR FREE in 5 University of Miami Student films during that time. You should open your eyes and see that there are many resources where you can get help.

This topic is dead IMHO, so why don't you post a PDF of your revised script when it's done so we all can edit it for you (j/k)

- Joey



Post Edited (07-09-06 15:49)

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Joey, that was great -- I truly mean it -- you finally came out with it; you understand what I was trying to say about maintaining my vision. You still don't accept my style of filmmaking, I know.

But also, Derek, Frank, Koz, et al -- you're roasting me! This is a roast -- without the jokes. LOL So that's what this was; it's not that you haven't heard of a guy going out and making a cinema verite movie. Okay, ok, so ... you like me, you like ne. Oh, let me clutch the Oscar another moment before you unleash another barage of dry jokes.

But seriously, fellas, I'm not saying, "get rid of the editors," because now we have FCP and every filmmaker can edit their own movie. Not at all, I can collaborate, I'm a team player -- I've done it in all the films I've shot for other people.

Also, I'm not asking you to become a solo filmmaker. Not everyone can do it, and in fact the streets of Hollywood are littered with directors that couldn't do it -- and actors that couldn't do it either. You have all these fantastic directors and actors -- because they were in unions or just couldn't bring themselves to work on personal films -- they threw it all away. They were dying to make movies but just couldn't work for less than what their expectations demanded or what their agents advised them against. And I undertand, but I didn't want to be like that -- I don't want to do it to myself. I'm not going out to pasture ... quietly. LOL

I'm going on here because I think this has use to us as editors

Winging it as a single is fine. Going improv. is fine. Going without a story board is fine. The tips about acting are fine . . but the director still needs to direct.

You still need to be able to think in a visual way. I am concerned that you apparently don't truly get that. And as a result you are missing much of what the folks here are saying.

This doesn't make you a bad person. I have family members with multiple Dr.s who can't hold a 4 shot sequence in their heads to save their necks.

Everything I saw (all we have to judge by for now) was all on one plane, with no camera motion. There was no use of depth of field. There was no feeling of freedom.

In the shots selected - it looks like you were 2 to 4 feet away from the actors for every single shot. It felt like being in a straight jacket. I bet it felt the same way for your actors.

As a DIRECTOR - you need to dance with the viewer and the camera And you need to paint the screen using light as your brush. Instead - you've presented us with a one note symphony. Get the heck out of the way and let those actors move.

Here's another facet of what I'm getting at - in the form of a specific question about the trailer. Sure the old saw "when the actors are moving - hold the camera still - when the actors are still, move the camera" works for the gross mechanics - but it is the ability to tell a story visually that counts.
Every single vocal we heard was on camera and directly to the camera. Was that REALY the most important thing to see while we were hearing the lines?

No one want's to see people talking. It's boring. People reacting are interesting. If the $300 for sex line is so important - what is the reaction as it is said? I could give a rip about seeing the reaction after the lines are over. That's too late.

A good judge of when you are doing the dance correctly is when you can turn off the audio - play down a scene and have a total stranger to the script know exactly what is going on.

Ian

<<<you can turn off the audio>>>

First I heard it in that direction. That's a lot harder, isn't it?

Don't you run into the Silent Film overacting if you do that?

"Give me your daughter or I'll forclose on the Morrrrrgage.!!!"

Koz

> you can turn off the audio

Dede Allen does that, if I remember correctly.

> No one want's to see people talking. It's boring. People reacting are
> interesting

I think Ian's statement goes a bit far, but the point behind it is valid. Cutting dead on the line of dialogue is amateur editing. You have to find a natural fluidity to cross-cutting when it comes to dialogue. I always like to use the analogy of two people talking on the street with the viewer watching -- at which point do you look at the person talking, and at which point do you look at the other person?

It's all context.

<<<I think Ian's statement goes a bit far>>>

That runs into a couple of other tru-isms, like shoot the money, etc, but yes, if the speaker is saying something explosive, you totally want to be on the listener for the reaction.

Then there's the expressive monolog, the bridge between scenes, etc. etc.

Koz

Thank you, Ian, for getting back into the discussion, because I agree with you the most. Ironically, you started out with the worst attack on my poor effort at doing a trailer. There's one thing I have to tell you and you must believe me, the shots I used in my second trailer weren't shots that I picked or even trimmed. I had a young person do it; it was the first time she'd done this sort of thing. I used them when the forum jumped all over me when I posted the first trailer -- which wasn't acutally a trailer, but just a sequence I'd edited for another exercise. I'm not making excuses; I didn't have the time to do a proper trailer, so I put up a trailer to get some feedback -- and I did get feedback! And I appreciated it, but now I have to set the record straight, because many serious editors have entered this discussion and I owe it to you all to clarify.

I agree with you so much, Ian, that I need to prove you wrong. LOL ... It's paradoxical that we argue with the people we respect the most. The people we don't respect we ignore ... in this type of affair.

The reason I agree with you is that you've conceded every point I tried to make as a solo filmmaker. But then you want to prove that maybe I'm a poor director, on account of I shoot too closely and edit the picture and dialogue without overlap for reactions. It may seem that way from the shots I used in the trailer, but that's because they were trimmed that way. I know that overlapping the dialogue over the reactions is the rule in editing dialogue and not the exception.

The impression you got from the shots used in the trailer is also mitigated by the choices of the scenes chosen for the trailer. I don't only shoot from 2 to 4 feet. I shoot close a lot, and that's by choice, but that's not how I always shoot. I have long shots and medium long shots as well. LOL

Why I like getting into the faces of my actors is complex, but it's something that works for me. I like the look and feel of shots like that. It's psychological, I know. Ironically commercials started shooting like that and moving the camera a lot (like panning wildly from one actor to another in a two shot -- it's terrible I know), but it's one way to show realism. I don't like unsteady shots but I ended up with too many of them in my last movie because I did a lot of handholding -- on the run -- because of logistics and a tight budget ( (I should say a non-existent budget.)

Koz, you made some good remarks in your posts. You're right, you guys haven't seen the whole movie, so I shouldn't be changing everything. I wasn't planning to re-edit my movie based on the critiques of the trailer; however, I did learn a lot of relevant techniques and gathered interesting observations that apply to other scenes in my movie not included in the trailers.

And you're right, there are times when you have to stay on the person speaking otherwise an important piece of information will be lost. Reactions aren't always the most important. As you all know beginning actors who haven't rehearsed much or read the screenplay thoroughly or memorized their lines -- sometimes the only thing on their minds (and reflected on their faces) is what their lines are and what they're going to say next. So when the camer is on them, their face is dead; they're waiting for the other actor to finish, sometimes they're just waiting for their que. Well, that's another problem I had because of ... logistics. LOL I don't want to blame actors always; they're learning and they're doing me a favor working for credit and copy. I don't want to be critical of actors only; with no budget filmmaking a lot the areas suffer.

Derek, therefore, your remarks on editing are correct. And, Joey, you've raised some helpful issues. I need to be more assertive in my directing. But you must keep in mind that I shot my last movie with no budget -- I mean that literally. The actors had a lot of problems with respect to meeting my scheduling needs. It wasn't all their fault. There were a lot of logistical problems. There was sickness, they had to take other jobs, they were having personal problems (the usual), etc. As you know, most low budet films have these problems, but the problem was accentuated because I was shooting a no budget movie ... solo.

I'm proud of what I was able to accomplish. I learned a lot about a style of filmmaking I enjoy. I learned a lot from the forum here as well talking about my problems, viz a viz my editing a trailer.

Regarding the new trailer. I watched the whole movie last night and I selected new shots this morning -- before posting this. I took a lot of the suggestions made on this forum into consideration. I'm excited about the choices and the potential for cutting a new trailer that I hope will past muster with this crowd of editors.

You are all very serious editors. You have strong opinions and work ethics. It's a privilidge to be reviewed and advised by you all. I remain very appreciative.

Out of respect for this forum, I have no right to criticize any of you, because I'm the one who needs advise with his trailer. Otherwise, I'd criticize some of you on your ideas about filmmaking in general. But not in this thread because, like I said, you're trying to help me.

Thank you again, everyone.

>>> And, Joey, you've raised some helpful issues. I need to be more assertive in my directing. But you must keep in mind that I shot my last movie with no budget -- I mean that literally <<<

I don't see what a budget has to do with the way you express your vision to the Actors.

>>> I'd criticize some of you on your ideas about filmmaking in general <<<

...bring it. I would love to hear that

- Joey



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Another thread, Joey.

Here's the new trailer. I tried to take as many of the suggestions as possible. Thanks everyone for helping out. Hopefully this one will pass muster.

Closer. Definitely an improvement - at least I can tell there's a story there somewhere.

The guy at head doesn't belong - rent comment is a distraction as placed. Liz liz call out should be recut. The beach cutaway doesn't work either.

Throw in a conflict line at end - something to set up he drama after the "I wana help." a " How dare you" or a I'll do whatever it takes.

A deep voiced narrator set up would help "A friendship that should never have been . . .(your stuff ) " A life that might never be saved - Butterflies - blah blah blah. "

Audio still needs a big kick in the pants- at least shots are slightly better lit and framed. MUSIC - take me through several moods. Biuld to a crash during your conflict - end with a stirring and moving strong piece.

All in all - at least you are in the same city as the ball park. The previous effort wasn't even in the same country.

In all honesty - it still needs a lot of work - but this shows you have been working at it.

Ian

i give up

Thanks, Ian. I appreciate the help.

I don't understand, Wayne. You didn't find any improvements? I used a widescreen filter on it. I think you recommended the widescreen format.

By the way, is it possible to crop out the black stripes at the top and bottom. I think that will save on the weight of the file, won't it?

...oh boy



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I need your feedback.Is the promo better now?

<a href="[www.releasing.net] Here</a>

Is that how it works?

Anyway, do tell me how format the page a little better. The picture isn't centered properly.

I'm cutting a new trailer. Back to the drawing board. Thanks for the help.

ok vic, i for one would am willing to put my money where my mouth is. i would like to reassemble your trailer.

yeah, this version (well the one before this morning anyway) was a good bit better, but there are still some fundamental issues to deal with.

i sent you an email requesting the clips i want. if you can put that on a server somewhere, if not we can work out something via mail...

Wayne, that is great! I appreciate it. I will send you a copy of the movie on DVD and the clips you requested.

Thanks again, everyone, for your reactions to my trailers and for answering some critical questions regarding my movie's promotional efforts. It's been a very valuable experience. I will post a new trailer over the next few days. I'll probably use another thread and relate my posting to some other technical question, such as compression or formats for the web, etc.

This last version is a little clearer. But:

1. It's not the blonde hooker's story. It's the brunette in the car. The hooker is the antagonist, the counterpoint. Start with the brunette.

2. The acting is still an insurmountable problem. You should consider making it a spoof of a "chance meeting changes life" drama rather than a serious film. Even if you overdubbed their dialogue again, their acting is still crap, especially the blonde's.

3. Is the blonde mentally challenged? After the woman says "No" three times, she's still going "three hundred dollars". That's just bad writing. If you want an example of such a scene done well, check out Paul Schrader's Hardcore. George C. Scott has a great scene where he's looking for his young daughter, who's ended up in the porn business, and he goes into a peep booth to get information about how to find her and ends up talking with a very naked, very funny Season Hubley.

4. So what if the brunette's looking for "Liz"? The last voice-over doesn't work at all. You're trying to tell us what the whole film's about -- it's soporific. In a good film, you're supposed to watch things unfold and get what they're about, not be told by the filmmaker. I didn't get any sense of connection, or sympathy, or fascination from the car scene, so why should the brunette try to help her?

Here's what you need to do:

- Tell us about the brunette. Is she new to Hollywood? What's her relationship with "Liz"? What is her personality like? What's her life need? What's her *problem*, which is going to be the central *conflict* of your film?

- The meeting with the hooker. Make it surprising, make it big, make it interesting. That's either your inciting incident or your all-important Act I break, which is almost always in the trailer. In Pretty Woman, the Act I break is when Richard Gere falls in love with Julia Roberts. In Witness, it's the murder that starts the whole flight into Amish country. In All the President's Men, it's when Bernstein and Woodward are partnered up. Twenty minutes into any good narrative feature, a bomb has to drop, and everything changes. That's the Act I break.

- How does this affect our main character? Is this film about the relationship between the two women? If so, choose some of their best dramatic scenes together...if they have any good ones. If the film isn't about them, then this trailer has gone down the wrong path yet again.


Vic, you gotta sit down with an editor, possibly on the film itself as well. You can get long-distance comments from us, but what you need is more -- you need somebody to thrash your film and trailer into shape. Wayne can only help you so much if you're not in the same room together. Back in film school, I had worked with plenty of directors who were either not as experienced as I was in editing, or were too close to the material to see the issues clearly. Getting the right result wasn't the most valuable thing; it was sitting with me arguing our case, exchanging ideas. Then when the director saw what judicious editing could do for his/her film, that's the breakthrough, that's the growth. And that's when the director starts to form a fruitful work relationship with me.

>I will post a new trailer over the next few days. I'll probably use another >thread and relate my posting to some other technical question, such as >compression or formats for the web, etc.

That's it Vic, keep disguising the creative help you now seek, in the form of a technical question. That way you will still be able to say you did all the creative work yourself and take credit for it. Solo filmmaking at it's finest!

Its really time to close this thread. I promise to think seriously about putting up a forum where we one can collaborate on subjects such as this. For now its best to close this thread before it goes 40 pages.