Best workflow for 23.98HD on a 29.97 SD timeline?

I am a little confused as to get the best motion out of my 23.98 XDCAM
footage whilst loading it onto a SD timeline.

Here is my workflow so far

1)Use Sony Xfer to disk of XDCAM 23.98 HD (1440x1080)
2)Import onto a ProRes 1440x1080 timeline
3) add colour correct etc on this timeline

4)Copy and then paste clips onto a ProRes 720x486 SD 29.97 lower field timeline.

5)output to compresor or live to DVD recorder as usual.


The problem I find is it almost seems that FCP is ignoring (not adding)
dropdown to the XDCAM footage.
As it is a mixed timeline with 29.97 ProRes SD (which looks fine)
I find the pans and zooms to have a stutter to it that the
SD stuff doesn't have.

I am new to HD on an SD timeline; so do any of you pros
have any suggestions.

and if I missed any info you need...ask and I will add it.

It's "pulldown," and you're sort of right and sort of wrong. Final Cut is, in fact, adding pulldown to your footage. It's just using a pulldown pattern called "2:2:2:4." That is, it's repeating every fourth frame to make four frames into five. The standard pulldown pattern is 3:2, where four frames are turned into five through rearranging fields. This gives the correct motion quality to 24p material played back at 60i. Final Cut, bless it, is incapable of inserting 3:2.

I'm not intimately familiar with XDCAM, but what you need is a way to insert 3:2 pulldown into your 24p material before intercutting it with the 60i material. Normally I'd say let your deck do this, and just capture your material as 60i, but if you're trying to stay tapeless ? I'm afraid I have no suggestion. I can tell you what's wrong, but we'll have to rely on somebody else to tell you how to fix it.

Don't put 24p material on a 29.97 timeline- that pulldown looks odd as hell. Why do you want 29,97 anyway? You get automatic proper pulldown anytime you play out from FCP to a tape and DVDs can be encoded at 23.98. So there's really no point in making 29.97 from 23.98. I'm assuming your live DVD recorder records over Firewire- that will have pulldown added from a 23.98 timeline by FCP and look proper.

Noah

Final Cut Studio Training, featuring the HVX200, EX1, EX3, DVX100, DVDSP and Color at [www.callboxlive.com]!
Author, RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera available now at: [www.amazon.com].
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Just cut in a 23.98 timeline. FCP will auto scale if you choose that route. It should playback RT in the timeline, all be it soft until rendered. I prefer to just use media manager to down-rez, or you could use compressor as well, just keep it at 23.98 and away you go.

If going to dvd as mentioned the FW out will add the 3:2 back in. DVDSP will encode a 23.98 QT as well, so you will have no issues.

NoahK Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't put 24p material on a 29.97 timeline- that
> pulldown looks odd as hell. Why do you want 29,97
> anyway? You get automatic proper pulldown anytime
> you play out from FCP to a tape and DVDs can be
> encoded at 23.98. So there's really no point in
> making 29.97 from 23.98. I'm assuming your live
> DVD recorder records over Firewire- that will have
> pulldown added from a 23.98 timeline by FCP and
> look proper.
>
> Noah


No the DVD player is fed via the aja io output; we have no firewire DVD
recorder.
Firewire at our place is used for the aja io, or with fcp closed to load XDCAM
footage.

I need a way of playing 23.98 XDCAM footage on a 29.97 timeline through the
aja io so that it looks good; without the weird pulldown.
Do I need to precomp the xdcam through compressor?

AJA IO should also be capable of creating a proper 3:2 pulldown from a 23.98 timeline for video output AFAIK. Trust me- you do not get anywhere useful by plopping a 23.98 piece of media onto a 29.97 sequence in FCP.

Noah

Final Cut Studio Training, featuring the HVX200, EX1, EX3, DVX100, DVDSP and Color at [www.callboxlive.com]!
Author, RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera available now at: [www.amazon.com].
Editors Store- Gifts and Gear for Editors: [www.editorsstore.com]

Noah, he's mixing 24p and 60i material on the same timeline. Inserting 3:2 on output isn't sufficient.

Mark, you're boned. I'm unaware of any good software solution for adding 3:2 pulldown to files. If you were dealing with video, you wouldn't have any problem. But with a file-based workflow like yours, your only option ? as far as I know ? is to take each shot into After Effects, drop it into a comp, then render that comp as uncompressed or ProRes at 60i with 3:2, and then recut your show.

This is the sort of thing that really out to be thought of first, not last. The format you're delivering ? in this case, 60i ? always dictates what format you cut.

This may be the answer from Ken Stone's webpage

[www.kenstone.net]





Jeff Harrell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Noah, he's mixing 24p and 60i material on the same
> timeline. Inserting 3:2 on output isn't
> sufficient.
>
> Mark, you're boned. I'm unaware of any good
> software solution for adding 3:2 pulldown to
> files. If you were dealing with video, you
> wouldn't have any problem. But with a file-based
> workflow like yours, your only option ? as far as
> I know ? is to take each shot into After Effects,
> drop it into a comp, then render that comp as
> uncompressed or ProRes at 60i with 3:2, and then
> recut your show.
>
> This is the sort of thing that really out to be
> thought of first, not last. The format you're
> delivering ? in this case, 60i ? always dictates
> what format you cut.

No, that is not what you want. That tutorial can basically be summed up as "frame-rate conversion with optical flow," which can produce more-or-less acceptable results in a pinch, if no better solution exists. But that's not what you want here. You don't want to frame-rate convert any of your footage. All you want is to add pulldown to the 24p material so it can be intercut with 60i material.

After pondering this over the weekend and talking to a colleague, here are the options we've identified:

1. Output all your 24p XDCAM material to HDCAM or HDCAM SR, then re-digitize it as 60i. This will blast your original camera timecode, but that's just life. You can keep your HDCAM tapes, and treat them as your new source tapes, basically forgetting the files that the camera spit out.

2. Batch-convert your 24p XDCAM material to 24p uncompressed, then take it into a Smoke and add 3:2 there, outputting back to uncompressed Quicktime at 60i. This will preserve your camera timecode, but obviously you need access to a Smoke.

3. Take each shot into After Effects and output it as ProRes with 3:2.

I really wish I knew of a better option for adding 3:2 in software, but I'm just drawing a complete blank here.

Jeff Harrell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, that is not what you want. That tutorial can
> basically be summed up as "frame-rate conversion
> with optical flow," which can produce more-or-less
> acceptable results in a pinch, if no better
> solution exists. But that's not what you want
> here. You don't want to frame-rate convert any of
> your footage. All you want is to add pulldown to
> the 24p material so it can be intercut with 60i
> material.
>
> After pondering this over the weekend and talking
> to a colleague, here are the options we've
> identified:
>
> 1. Output all your 24p XDCAM material to HDCAM or
> HDCAM SR, then re-digitize it as 60i. This will
> blast your original camera timecode, but that's
> just life. You can keep your HDCAM tapes, and
> treat them as your new source tapes, basically
> forgetting the files that the camera spit out.
>
> 2. Batch-convert your 24p XDCAM material to 24p
> uncompressed, then take it into a Smoke and add
> 3:2 there, outputting back to uncompressed
> Quicktime at 60i. This will preserve your camera
> timecode, but obviously you need access to a
> Smoke.
>
> 3. Take each shot into After Effects and output it
> as ProRes with 3:2.
>
> I really wish I knew of a better option for adding
> 3:2 in software, but I'm just drawing a complete
> blank here.

Strikes 1,2 and 3
1. Don't have HDCAM
2. Don't have Smoke
3. Don't have after effects

p.s. I asked to have this footage shot 29.97 but I got 23.98
I have scoured the internet for solutions but can't find one in
getting file based HD XDCAM.movs to conform to pulldown in FCP on a 29.97 SD timeline

thanks for your help

It's still "pulldown," not "dropdown."

I think your best option is to send these out to be dubbed to tape, then re-digitized. Again, you'll lose camera timecode, but your HDCAMs will become your new master tapes, so that's survivable. Plus, in any just world your client will absorb the cost. Especially if you said the footage needed to be provided to you at 60i. You might not be able to sell it, since you didn't explain the need or potential cost up front, but it's worth a shot.

I'm not aware of any other solution. Doesn't mean there are none, just means I'm coming up empty.

So could you clear something up..
If i was to come into FCP via the Kona 2 HD card
as a video source does that mean correct pulldown
WILL be added when the 23.98 video is placed onto
a 29.97 timeline?

No. Final Cut Pro cannot add 3:2 pulldown by itself. There's nothing you can do in Final Cut Pro ? just stock Final Cut Pro, without any extra software ? to add 3:2 pulldown on the timeline or in your bin.

If you're cutting 24p material on a 24p timeline, but mastering to 60i tape, your Kona board can add 3:2 on the way out. (Presumably. I can't vouch for older Kona boards; I know the currently available ones do it.)

I must say - this is a most lame problem. I am an FCP expert, and my post facility prides itself on doing top work. The fact that there is not a simple plugin to fix this problem is mind boggling! Our workflow becomes ridiculous on simple projects.

As we move into a tapeless, all HD world with stock footage coming from Standard Def archives, this is going to be a problem for more and more people.

Apple - if you are out there - fix this issue! Make 2997 FCP timelines play 24 frame footage with the proper pulldown!

Bill