SheerVideo Frustration

I have been investigating the SheerVideo codec for use in professional animation production. I have to say the this is a truly amazing codec. It has cut the size of the data I have transfered from studios overseas in half, cut the render times, and I get lossless 1920X1080 QT movies that will play off my internal HD with no video hardware. Remarkable.
I have however run into a glitch that may make it impossible for me to use the codec.

When I use the SheerVideo on the system with a KONA 2 card installed, I cannot render anything. The system goes through the motions, sometimes, and writes a render file, but that file is corrupt. Other times FCP refuses to render unrendered clips.

I've talked with KONA and they say that it is a conflict between the Apple Uncompressed codec and SheerVideo in the way they talk to QT's video out compontent that the KONA, or other video cards, need. Everything seems to work perfectly on the system without the KONA card, but I need the card for output to tape. I have no problems playing the original clips out to tape, but the sequence chokes at every render.

Does any body have experience with SheerVideo? I've tried to contact Andreas through the website, but no luck. I'm hoping that there is a way to disable the video out component or the Apple Lossless codecs, during editing and rendering, and then reactivate them for output. Any ideas?

This codec holds such amazing potential for HD production. I'd hate to have to abandon it. I wish Apple would do more to enable 3rd party codecs. SheerVideo potentially eliminates the need for the Apple Uncompressed codecs, and perhaps that's the problem. SheerVideo is faster (compression and decompression), looks better, and smaller. If Apple would enable RT fx for 3rd party codecs, and fix this conflict, SheerVideo would be the only codec I would use for production.



Post Edited (07-20-06 12:43)

Robert Weaver
Director of Post Production
Starz Media - Film Roman

It is an amazing codec and I'm afraid you are stuck between a rock and a hard place until and if someone knows a work around. Hopefully Andreas can help.

Never heard of it until now. Rule of thumb: if it don't play nice with your capture card...it's worthless. I also HIGHLY DOUBT it looks BETTER than a 10-Bit Uncompressed HD file. You have to ask yourself...what EXACTLY is this codec "getting rid of" to make the files that small? Besides...if you want to pass on a QT encoded with that codec, you will have to distribute this codec - and it's not free (only the reader is free).

Personally...I'm old school and being in Broadcast and dealing with clients all over the US, I'll stick with the standards that I know everyone uses and deal with the file sizes. Nobody I know is using or has even heard of this codec (that's supposedly been around since 1997).

- Joey



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

If you don't know Sheer Video then you should read up on it.

[www.bitjazz.com]

"Ignorance not Wisdom a path to"

- Robert Weaver

i came accross it a few years back when i was looking for a fcp render friendly alpha codec. looked great to me, but i didnt se a whole lot of use for it... maybe i should have another look

For archival purposes there is nothing close as far as my eye can see. It's pretty remarkable but then I've not spent a lot of time with it to see what else it can do for me.

yeah, that was kind of my standpoint. looked great as an archival or transport medium - but as far as general workflow, i just didnt have a use for it...

Can't you drag the Apple Animation codec to the trash while working with Sheer? Drag it back when you are done? Seem's too simple though.

SheerVideo's potential in animation production is remarkable for a number of reasons:

Color space conversion: Almost all animation is produced in RGB colospace and SheerVideo handles the conversion to HD-YUV colorspace flawlessly, which is why it looks so much better than Apple's codec.

Lossless: Apart from the color space conversion, the decompressed frames are pixel for pixel perfect to the original.

Speed: Compression and decompression speed is faster than real time, which speeds up work flow significantly.

Size/Data rate: a 10bit YUV 4:2:2:4 SheerVideo file is typically 1/3 to 1/2 the size of the same file in 10bit YUV 4:2:2 Apple Lossless. It also uses 1/3 to 1/2 the data rate. This means that I am able to play/preview the files on any G5 system without additional hardware. I can render 1/2 HD size 960X540 SheerVideo movies to the network and everyone in the workgroup can see the files in high enough resolution with no artifacts to make critical artisic and technical decisions, as they will play in real time across a GigE eithernet connection.
I am currently cutting in lossles 1920X1080p 23.98 on a 1TB 2 disk eSata Firmtec raid that I built for less than $1000.

Tapless Workflow: The codec makes it possible for me to work without tape until the very end for the final output. This results in huge saving by eliminating expensive HD source latoffs and downconverts for off line.

The Downside:

Render problem as stated above.
No Universal Binary version now available.

Rob Weaver
Director of Post Production
IDT Film Roman



Robert Weaver
Director of Post Production
Starz Media - Film Roman

Thanks for that Rob

Andreas is a genuine codec genius. The Sheer codec is fully lossless and doesn't throw away a single bit, and does YCbCr <-> RGB conversions better than anything else. Hopefully he can solve your clash with the kona.

Graeme



[www.nattress.com] - Plugins for FCP-X

if a guy were using an hvx200 and operating tapeless, im guessing this would be a huge help in archiving?

HVX archiving should remain as it is now. Keep the original MXF files (Contents folder and LASTCLIP.txt file). Those work natively with newer Avids, but QT files imported into FCP don't.

For P2 footage I would be against using the Sheer codec.

Shane Ross wrote:

> HVX archiving should remain as it is now. Keep the original
> MXF files (Contents folder and LASTCLIP.txt file). Those work
> natively with newer Avids, but QT files imported into FCP
> don't.
>
> For P2 footage I would be against using the Sheer codec.

Could you elaborate? The SheerVideo QT file that I brought into Our Avid Adrenalins worked flawlessly. What am I missing?

Rob

If it works, great. But it isn't the best it can be.

Many of the newer Avids work with the MXF files natively, so you just bring the drive you saved the P2 footage too and you copy all the information to your Avid drives and you start editing.

With Sheer, you will be compressing the footage. And while I am sure the compression is really really nice, coming from a broadcast TV background, any chance to avoid compression is a good thing.

But...if it works for you, and you like what you see...then do it. Who am I to say "don't do that?"

Thanks for the input. There is certainlty no reson to use Sheer if your sources are in a native fomat to begin with.

Ther reason I would use Sheer in an Avid for animation is to have an uncomressed original RGB source to be able to link back to for filmout.

Sheer files are typically even smaller than RLE encoded TGAs or TIFFs. Plus, as I've stated, they play almost anywhere. With the DPX plugin from Glue Tools, I can deliver conformed reels directly from FCP as DPX frames to the lab.

Rob

Shane, Sheer is lossless so it doesn't reduce the quality of anything fed into it. However, as DVCproHD can be stored natively, there's no advantage storing as uncompressed (losslessly compressed) other than to facilitate file transfer to pc's that don't have the DVCProHD codec.

Graeme



[www.nattress.com] - Plugins for FCP-X

Robert,

Which Sheer codec are you using? The generic Sheer codec has too many different inputs and outputs for Final Cut Pro to understand, so you have to use one of the specific Sheer codecs with FCP. It sounds like you probably want to use Sheer Y'CbCr[A] 10bv 4:2:2[:4].

Are you using one of the SheerVideo Easy Setups in the "Extras: for Final Cut Pro" folder in the SheerVideo installation package? If not, it sounds like you want to look in the subfolder "1920x1080p24df" for the FCP Preset file "1080p24df Sheer YUV 10bv 422p".

I will confer with AJA to see if we can resolve this issue.

In the meantime, you may be able to work around the conflict using the Kona Control Panel. Failing that, you shouldn't have to physically remove the card - just deinstall the drivers. Admittedly, that's still an ugly workaround.

Andreas Wittenstein
BitJazz Inc.
[www.bitjazz.com]

Joey,

Although the company BitJazz Inc. has been around since 1997, our real-time SheerVideo codec has only been available since 2003. Our earlier lossles codec, PhotoJazz, is not real-time.

I expect people will soon start hearing about SheerVideo over the background marketing din. In today's commercial society, it's unfortunately no longer true that "if you build a better mousetrap, people will beat a path to your door". After years of focussing on developing our technology, we believe SheerVideo has reached a level of utility where it makes sense to start advertising and fielding a sales force, and are gearing up accordingly.

It is extraordinarily difficult to gain acceptance for a new format such as SheerVideo, because users reasonably want it to be compatible with every piece of hardware and software in their workflow. We do what we can to make our product universally compatible, but in this cutting-edge field, most manufacturers special-case each format to squeeze out a little extra performance, so we need their cooperation, while they (to the extent they lack the vision to understand the inherent advantages of using SheerVideo), naturally prefer to await sufficient user demand.

I would hope that most prospective users would judge SheerVideo on its own merits, rather than on its fashionability. It's worth noting that every single one of the standards we know and trust started out unknown, and many of them originated in companies previously unknown.

Incidentally, at least one major broadcast network has been using SheerVideo for live on-air broadcast.

BitJazz wrote:

> Robert,
>
> Which Sheer codec are you using? The generic Sheer codec has
> too many different inputs and outputs for Final Cut Pro to
> understand, so you have to use one of the specific Sheer codecs
> with FCP. It sounds like you probably want to use Sheer
> Y'CbCr[A] 10bv 4:2:2[:4].

I have tried several, but have gotten the best overall results with Y'CbCr[A] 8bv 4:2:2[:4]. The original animation is 8bit per channel color and we are doing minimal rendering that would require the headroom of 10bits. But I'll give the 10bit another shot.


> Are you using one of the SheerVideo Easy Setups in the "Extras:
> for Final Cut Pro" folder in the SheerVideo installation
> package? If not, it sounds like you want to look in the
> subfolder "1920x1080p24df" for the FCP Preset file "1080p24df
> Sheer YUV 10bv 422p".

Yes, I'm using the easy setup as described, except the 8bit version. Took me a while to figure it out. The df reference threw me off because there is no df timecode in HD. But reading the docs carefully showed me that you use df to designate 23.98 fps timebase.

> I will confer with AJA to see if we can resolve this issue.

You are da-man!
>
> In the meantime, you may be able to work around the conflict
> using the Kona Control Panel.

It seems like the control panel's primary video format should be set to 1080 23.89psf since I am working with progressive frames. But that doesn't work at all. I only get playback out of the card if the primary video format is set to 1080i. That seem strange to me. Could be my monitor won't sync to 23.98psf.

> Failing that, you shouldn't have
> to physically remove the card - just deinstall the drivers.
> Admittedly, that's still an ugly workaround.

Is there a way to disable the drivers without having to restart? A shell script possibly?

>
> Andreas Wittenstein
> BitJazz Inc.
> [www.bitjazz.com]

Thank you for your fast and thorough support. And for an amazing codec.

Robert Weaver
Director of Post Production
IDT - Film Roman

Shane says:

"...And while I am sure the compression is really really nice, coming from a broadcast TV background, any chance to avoid compression is a good thing."

Robert says:

"...thanx for the input"

Joey says:

"...I'm old school and being in Broadcast and dealing with clients all over the US, I'll stick with the standards that I know everyone uses and deal with the file sizes."

Robert says:

"Ignorance not Wisdom a path to"

Everyone has their reasons for using a piece of software, Robert. No reason to take the low road & be personally insulting because I don't share your enthusiasm. Not that I have to explain myself, but I choose to keep my files in their native formats because that's how I originally worked with them and storage space does not concern me. I am always open to new technology...but a new codec, unless it's Broadcast-related & recognized by my clients & employers...no thanks.

You like & use this codec...wonderful. Best of the best to you, sir. Those of us that don't aren't "ignorant".

- Joey

@ Mike - yes, I have read up on it.



Post Edited (07-21-06 07:51)

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

First a bit of background to this idea; Currently FCP does not support 720p50 P2 MXF files, but a company called Imagine came up with a passthrough codec to allow people to work with 720p50 files in FCP, first converting the MXF to Qt via P2 Log. When this passthrough codec is installed you have to remove the Apple DVCPROHDVideoOutputCodec.component in order for the image to render properly inside FCP.

What I have been doing is keeping the DVCPROHDVideoOutputCodec.component in the Library/Quicktime folder until it causes a problem (usually when an effect render is needed) and then I close FCP, move the component out of Library/Quicktime folder and restart FCP. So far this has worked fine.

I understand the Kona cards use a component called KonaVideoOutput.component so it might be worth trying this with the Kona output component and see if it helps.

If it does I'm sure a fairly simple Applescript could be created to make the moving back and forth of the component even easier.

Mark



Post Edited (07-22-06 17:17)

Interesting insight. I will give it a try. Thanks

Rob