play back unrendered video onto DV camera

i'm running final cut pro 7.

i edited a whole film... the video looked unrendered (green) when editing. after rendering the film, all of my clips had new in and out points (after rendering)... which basically ruins the whole film and all my hours of work. all my cuts change. every in and out point i had set on each cut changes/shifts post-render. i don't want to spend another few days re-editing the film...

basically, i want to be able to export a video so that it looks like the video in my timeline (unrendered).

when playing back my timeline and having a mini-dv ntsc camera connected via firewire, i can hear the audio playing back... but only a freeze frame of the first frame i started on playing back from the time line. if i scroll or scrub the video, it moves on my external device (dv screen), but if i play back, it only plays audio continuously and i get a freeze frame... is there a way to get the video to play as it is in my timeline, unrendered, onto my external camera to record it?

i used mpeg streamclip to convert my video files to 720X480, apple prores hq, ntsc - ccir 601, lower (even).
my sequence is 720X480, ntsc dv 3:2, ntsc - ccir 601, lower (even). for compressor, i've tried both Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) and DV/DVPRO NTSC. neither of them play more than a freeze frame on my camera when trying to play back in the timeline to my external camera.

again, the film when unrendered, looks perfect in my timeline... but can't get my external camera to have the same thing happening! when printing to video or exporting to quicktime, the computer writes the video... which basically does the same thing as when it is rendered. it changes my in and out points.
please help!!

thanks many times.

hi there.

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after rendering the film, all of my clips had new in and out points

i have had this happen to me.
in our case the content of every shot was slipped 2-3 frames.
the problem turned out to be a corrupt TC track in the video file (caused by an uncontrolled "Capture now" direct from a telecine)

the solution for us was to simply re-export the clips from FCP as QUickTime movies, same settings, self contained.
this was a direct file-to-file copy, so no re-compressing, but the TC track was re-written.

we then checked the TC was the same, from memory it needed to be changed by a few frames (2-3 frames, as per the slippage) to match the original.
then we could re-connect,
and then the files behaved themselves.

if you have used Mpeg Streamclip to create the files it could be that their TC starts at zero.
this could cause you problems if you need to slip the TC value backwards (back past zero)
i'm not sure if that's a possibility,
but if it turns out it is, you could easily change the original TCs to start at 1hr.

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i used mpeg streamclip to convert my video files to 720X480, apple prores hq, ntsc - ccir 601, lower (even).
my sequence is 720X480, ntsc dv 3:2, ntsc - ccir 601, lower (even).

that's a pretty weird workflow.
if you knew you were mastering to DV, you should have converted to DV in the first place.

DV tape might not be your only delivery method, so maybe the Prores is the best way,
but as it says in MPeg Streamclip: "Use Upper field first for all codecs except DV"


good luck fixing the problem,
nick

this is way more off than 2-3 frames. i believe that if i reconnect... everything will be off. in my timeline, for example, the first frame of the footage (rendered) is what previews in the clip in the TL. to clarify... i have a clip that starts out with a guy walking. i have cut the guy out. when i play the clip back, the guy is cut out... but every clip in my timeline has a "still" preview freeze frame on it (i guess so that you can identify what clip is what). the clip with the guy cut out... in my timeline -- the preview image is of the guy. when the video writes or renders, etc... the guy is in the clip. do you get me? this is a huge problem.

is there no way to export seeing what i see currently in my timeline? it is green, so maybe it isn't even "unrendered".

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that's a pretty weird workflow.
if you knew you were mastering to DV, you should have converted to DV in the first place.

i didn't know i was mastering to DV! i just want to export quicktime to put it on the internet... i am thinking of trying to master to DV as a work around!! i read that you could play the timeline (maybe without print to tape) and record off a DV camera... but am having no luck. also, even if i do try to print to tape (which screws up my in and out points)... on my DV camera, i'm hearing audio... but just getting black on my camera screen on the video. so seems like there is a problem there as well.

is there no way to print to video without writing audio and/or is there a way to record what i'm seeing in the timeline / canvas on my computer? i might just have to set up another video camera on a tripod and record the video off my screen, but i'm worried that will look really crappy and lo-fi... but it might be the only way?

thanks again

for the work around -- when i play back, i see only a freeze frame on my external camera (but i get audio). is there any way to record off the vcr setting on my camera and have the timeline play continuously (not just freeze frame)? again, was not intending to master to tape, but think this might be a good work around.

thanks nick and friends

and nick and friends -- if you think the work around i'm thinking is impossible... could you try to re-explain the output from final cut clips and then reconnecting that you were writing about? i honestly am just editing between two long clips... it was two shots, each 25 minutes long or so. the sound is crazy cut up too though... any movements/slips in time would really effect everything... again, that's why i thought a real-time, unrendered master to dv would be the most effective. sorry to explain so much -- just trying to be clear. thanks

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in my timeline, for example, the first frame of the footage (rendered) is what previews in the clip in the TL. to clarify... i have a clip that starts out with a guy walking. i have cut the guy out. when i play the clip back, the guy is cut out... but every clip in my timeline has a "still" preview freeze frame on it (i guess so that you can identify what clip is what). the clip with the guy cut out... in my timeline -- the preview image is of the guy. when the video writes or renders, etc... the guy is in the clip. do you get me?

i think so
i haven't had it that extreme, but it may be a similar issue???
i don't really know, sorry,
but it does sound as if your media is corrupt somehow.

========================================

another solution

corrupt sequences can sometimes be fixed by copying the content into a new sequnce.

before anything else, try copying the content of your original sequence (that didn't need rendering)
while you are in that sequnce, fatch frame a clip into the viewer
(park on the clip, hit f)

create a new project

edit the clip in the viewer into the new sequence
when you are asked if you want the sequence settings to match the clip's properties, say yes.

now delete that clip and paste you original sequence into the new fresh sequence.

see if that fixes the problem.

========================================

re: the workaround

FCP 7 can play non-DV timeline out via Firewire to DV devices.
i'm sure i've done that from ProRes 1920x1080 timelines, so i don't know what your problem is there,
maybe the non-conventional field order?

you could go back and re-export from Mpeg Streamclip, and reconnect,
but as you only have the two clips, i'd try the method i suggested first.

==============================================

COPY & RE-CONNECT

to be clear about this, i am suggesting:

- make a COPY of your media, which may fix the problem,

- CHECK the Time Code (TC) matches up

- then COPY the problem sequence into a NEW PROJECT, and reconnect in there.
(sorry, i didn't say that in the previous post)

to copy the media,
select all your clips in the browser,
then file menu > Batch Export
Format = QuickTime move,
Settings = Item Settings
Include Audio & Video
Make self contained
DO NOT use item in / out.

to check the TCs
lay your original clips and the copies in a timeline,
the originals on one track, and the copies on the track above.
have snapping turned on so they line up exactly.

to check they are actually the correct CONTENT select the top clip, and use Control B to "un-enable" it (basically make it invisible)
Control B will also re-enable it.
you should see no change in the image.
spot check this in a few posts in the timeline

when i am doing this, i change the COMPOSITE MODE of the top layer to "Difference"
if the clips are the same you will see only BLACK,
if they are slightly different, you will see a mainly black, and some psychedelic colours!
to change the Composite mode, right click on the top clip, look for the Composite mode sub-menu.

in your canvas, turn on Timecode Overlays (3rd small pull-down menu near the top of the canvas)

the TC's of both clips should match.
if they don't, double click the NEW CLIP into the viewer,
go to Modfiy Menu > Timecode, and adjust the TC to match the old clip.


to reconnect:
copy the original sequence into a new project
File Menu > Reconnect Media
navigate to the new clips, and connect.


if you do need to re-export from MPeg Streamclip,
you would basically use these same methods to check the TC's match and re-connect.


hope that helps,
nick

the clip that is playing right unrendered (but then changing in and out points when rendered)... i figured out why it is doing it. the clip's frame rate is 14.99 frames per second. my sequence and the other clip is 30 fps. but again, in my timeline the clip at 14.99 fps in a sequence of 30 fps plays great ! however, when the video is rendered or written... the in and out points change. i know the problem now, but what is the solution after editing a whole movie by what my timeline says? shoot it off my computer screen onto another camera? there must be a way to capture what i am seeing in my timeline (unrendered)?
thanks

first -- thanks so much for your time and for trying to help, nick.

i was shooting on a camera that has a slow frame rate. i guess i forgot to change the frame rate in mpeg streamclip... is all my work/edits from that camera screwed (1 of the 2 long clips)?

i opened the long clip from that camera (14.99fps) in mpeg streamclip and re-exported it 30 fps. i reconnected the clip inside of FCP of 14.99 to the new exported clip of 30 fps. obviously, and unfortunately, though the in and out points are all wrong this way (they are the same as if i render the footage or clip... which are not the intended edits). i need my film to look like it does inside final cut... unrendered with the (old) 14.99 clips file connected.

i wish things would be as i see them (unrendered at 14.99 for the one clip). that would be intuitive in a film program, wouldn't it -- to have what you see? i used to hand cut real footage, real film. when you cut real film on a steinbeck, you get what you see. now, i spend many days cutting a film digitally... to wind up with something that isn't as i see it when cutting in the program? these new technologies are not for me apparently. the nuclear radiation pours on into the pacific.

hello brave new world

yeah, tried even moving things around, eyeballing where the shot should cut in on the 30fps converted/re-connected from the 14.99... but the shots at 14.99 obviously play faster than when they are 30 fps... so it completely throws my entire film that i cut out of whack. the outs are not the same as they are playing slower, so all the continuous motion that i painstakingly cut frame-by-frame is all messed up... is there a way to get the 14.99 mixed with 30fps in a 30fps timeline somehow other than filming my screen? thanks again very much nick and friends for giving an old editing bay man some hope.

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in my timeline the clip at 14.99 fps in a sequence of 30 fps plays great !

i find that hard to believe.
surely it would be stuttering, or have a jerky quality, as each frame would be played twice.

so one clip needs rendering and the other doesn't?
you never said that.

here's a tip: if that happens to you SOMETHING IS WRONG.
STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND FIGURE OUT WHAT IS WRONG
otherwise you will wind up in a mess.

in case you didn't know it, you are in a mess.

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shoot it off my computer screen onto another camera?

if you are really asking if this is ok, then i am tempted to tell you to go right ahead!
it'll look like rubbish.

go back to your original media and figure out what went wrong.
if it was really shot at 15fps, and if you don't mind the look of that,
then export it again, but change the frame rate to 30.
you will get the same look, but stable video file.

THEN you will need to re-edit the new clip into your timeline,
use the REPLACE EDIT (read about that in the manual, or i think there is a good article n that at Ken Stone's site)
here it is
[www.kenstone.net]

you say you've done a lot of sound edits.
you can try leaving the original 15fps sound in your timeline,
but i have no idea if it will survive an export.


if you really just want ANYTHING directly out of FCP NOW,
get a screen capture program, and record the FCP canvas.
iShowU is pretty cheap
[store.shinywhitebox.com]

set the canvas to 100%
FYI the canvas is a low-res version of your media.

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i used to hand cut real footage, real film. when you cut real film on a steinbeck, you get what you see.

yes, but if you laced it up wrong, you got a horrible sound that told you SOMETHING IS WRONG.
you stopped what you were doing, and fixed the problem before you ruined all your footage.

or if you ran the picture over the sound heads you got chewed out by your boss, and never made that mistake again!

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these new technologies are not for me apparently

i don't know about that.
if you had the patience to edit film, you should have the patience to LEARN FCP before you stumble into it.
that's how i did it.
slow and steady, with the manual (or better, one of the many how-to books) by your side.

you didn't know how to make split-edits on film with 2 tracks of audio and stay in sync the first time you tried it did you?

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the nuclear radiation pours on into the pacific

i read that the people in charge waited too long before they reacted, exacerbating the problem.

here's the up-side of your dilemma:
you have learnt a valuable lesson,
PLUS you now get to learn all about replace edits


nick

Uhm, wow, this is a mess. Let's try and sort it out

What camera did you shoot on, what format does it capture in and what frame rate?
What do you need to deliver?

Also, what Nick says. All his advice is important. Go slow and try and get each point under your belt before you move to the next one.

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the shots at 14.99 obviously play faster than when they are 30 fps... (etc)

i'm finding it hard to visualise that, and hard to figure out what went wrong.
normally, FCP will try to play the clips back at some sort of correct speed by duplicating or skipping frames.
but then i've never worked with 14.99fps footage!

i reckon you need to get someone in to help you, in person,
with this, and maybe other aspects of FCP.

but wait... here's Jude!
Jude is a few hours up on me, time-zone-wise,
so i'll sign over.


all the best,
nick

thanks again, nick. you are very wise. all you say is very true.

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yes, but if you laced it up wrong, you got a horrible sound that told you SOMETHING IS WRONG.

also, once i had a some film cut and when i was putting it back on the spool, was winding too tight and rip ! did almost ruin quite a bit of footage (but i was able to tape it back up).

hope i can tape this problem back together now (minus the cool looking line that that rip made down that old film days mistake).

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use the REPLACE EDIT

i might not be in as bad of shape as i thought. it seems as though i am about 36 frames off every clip. if i take 36 frames off of the newly connected 30fps clip... the in edit is around the same as the (old) unrendered 14.99 clip. i.e. -- if i cut the new (30fps) clips 36 frames and move them up 36 frames... and then extend the end of them to where the old clips ended... the out point is about the same!

so i was thinking this could be an easy, quick fix. re-connect media. select all edited clips. cut off 36 on all of them, bring them 36 frames forward and extend the tail of them to where my old cut of 14.99 ended.

however... to my dismay, even if you have two clips selected... only the one you are working with will extend. if i have 2 clips highlighted (grayed, what have you), and i edit one... nothing happens to the other. is there a way to tell the program to move both clips (or all hundreds of clips) up and back in the same way? if so, this could be a quick fix!

or is this where the replacement clips come in?

THANKS so much! i might not be in such bad shape after all.

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the nuclear radiation pours on into the pacific

i read that the people in charge waited too long before they reacted, exacerbating the problem.

some new technology is good, like solar (and maybe FCP once i get the hang of it)... but others (especially those brought about by industry and greed) prove to destroy more than aid our species.

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i'm finding it hard to visualise that, and hard to figure out what went wrong.
normally, FCP will try to play the clips back at some sort of correct speed by duplicating or skipping frames.
but then i've never worked with 14.99fps footage!

yes! please see my post right above this one, sir. you are right, nick. now, i just need to adjust all of the clips 36 frames and i should be golden (i hope) also just hoping there is a faster way than doing each of the hundred edits one by one!!

what you may find useful is the SLIP TOOL

with this you can SLIP the contents of your shot,
like trimming 36 frames from the head, and adding 36 frames at the tail,
all in one move.

select a clip, summon the slip tool (hit s for slip, or select it from the tool bar)
then type in your value +/-36, then enter.
try minus 36, if that's wrong, undo and try plus 36

you can also just grab and drag the shot with the slip tool,
that's useful, as you can see your head and tail frames in the canvas,
but not so good this instance, as it's not accurate enough.

you can also do all the problem clips in one go:
in the timeline do a search (Command F) for the clip,
type the name of the problem clip
hit "Find All"

then use the slip tool.

i hope you are doing all this work on a COPY of your sequence!


nick

THANKS NICK!

can't really figure out the command F, but the slip tool is exactly what i need! it seems like things are really off about 34 frames... so i slipped -34 frames... and YES! fixed! thanks so much! even though there are 100 edits -- i don't mind slipping 100 times. much faster that cutting 34 off the front, moving 34 on the end, moving up, etc.

THANKS NICK!

my pleasure.

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command F

Command F (or Apple F) is "Find"

like Command (or Apple) S is "save" (you do that a lot, i hope)

or use Edit Menu > Find, (but learn the shortcuts if you want to get proficient)

in the timeline, you can do a Find,
and specify (in the window that opens) that you want to to find only between in and out points.
that'll help you select all the edits you have yet to slip.


cheers,
nick

thanks man.

i guess i'm still screwed though. some seem to need to slip 34, others 36 and others 64 in order to match up with the action... alas. i might be screwed still

I really think we need to examine your entire workflow and the motivations behind the decisions.

What exactly did you shoot on? What format? What frame size?

Why did you use MPEG Streamclip for the initial conversion? I've never used it for clips that require matching timecode. I'm not dead sure it can do it. For example, I just dragged a DV clip into MPEG Streamclip -- a clip that had been batch-captured from timecoded DV tape. In FCP, the clip's 1st frame shows up as 00:00:37;04 (as it should). In MPEG Streamclip, the clip's 1st frame showed up as 00:00:00:00 -- which suggests to me that MPEG Streamclip isn't able to retain source timecode.

Why ProRes HQ? To use ProRes HQ on an SD Sequence is, to me, absolute overkill. And then you pretty much killed the advantages of using ProRes HQ on the clips by editing in a DV timeline.

It is highly unlikely that the Sequence is causing the problems. Usually with this kind of grievous timecode problem, the issue is with the source clips. If I were you, I'd go back all the way to the first level -- camera masters.


www.derekmok.com

hey derek. i'm shooting on toy cameras because they look cool. it seems the only way to get final cut to edit them is to use mpeg streamclip and convert to prores and set the timeline the same. i guess i don't have to use hq, could go with regular pro res then?

the problem here, which we figured out, is that i forgot to change the frame rate of one camera that shoots 14.99 fps to 30 fps.

JUST STILL WONDERING -- is there now way to export what i see in my timeline in canvas viewer pre-render?

You haven't answered the actual question. What format are you getting out of the camera? The only information I have right now is that the clips are coming at around 15fps. What codec? What wrapper? What frame size?

> is there now way to export what i see in my timeline in canvas viewer pre-render?

No. If you export without rendering, FCP will render what it needs to. That was a major mistake, the fact that you never rendered until you were done editing so that you didn't notice the problem until now. The only solution I've seen would have been to put the entire clip into a timeline, and export that entire thing, and then only use the second-generation export to edit with. Even a QuickTime re-save didn't solve the jumbled timecode. Compressor might have worked. Now that you've already edited the clips, it's a lot harder to fix this.


www.derekmok.com

oh well. going to start again, one by one.

all creations change in time.

okay -- new question.

i was thinking... in the timeline, i could pretty easily try to match a reconnected clip (at 30fps) to the old clip (14.99fps). thought i could watch the old timeline clip... and then reconnect the timeline clip to the 30fps file and try to mimic it... however, when you reconnect a clip, it reconnects all the footage.

basically to break it down for clarification. when you edit on a steinbeck, you have all your footage hung up that you shot. you cut your clips and hang them up. i cut from that footage and assembled a sequence. i need to swap out all the footage from one camera (14.99) frames per second and re-edit the film. but if i could watch the transitions at 14.99... i could more easily cut my new film to splice in.

so i'm basically asking -- is there any way to just only reconnect one clip in the sequence at one time so that i can view and match? or do i have to reconnect all the footage that is hanging up in the bin (that used to hang by the steinbeck)?

thanks my computer neighbors!

derek -- 720X480 ntsc, data rate 7.6 mb/sec on one camera. (30fps).
720X480 ntsc, data rate 3.7mb/sec, 14.99 frames per second (2nd camera footage that is giving me trouble when rendering up to a 30fps sequence)

to double clarify: trying to figure out a way to reconnect only the bits and pieces i have cut into my sequence individually... rather than reconnect all of the footage that it was cut from in my bin. thanks

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is there any way to just only reconnect one clip in the sequence at one time

in a word: no.

reconnect can also change every instance of a clip in an entire PROJECT,
so it's something to be fairly wary of.
i will copy a sequence into a new project to do a reconnect,
if i only want that sequence's version of the clip to be re-connected.

what you want to do is a job for the REPLACE EDIT.



nick

> derek -- 720X480 ntsc, data rate 7.6 mb/sec on one camera. (30fps).
> 720X480 ntsc, data rate 3.7mb/sec, 14.99 frames per second (2nd camera footage
> that is giving me trouble when rendering up to a 30fps sequence)

Given that you have 15fps footage, I assume this is tapeless. That means you didn't really have much of a reason to convert the footage to ProRes HQ. Your source was DV NTSC. It doesn't get any better than DV. ProRes HQ NTSC at 29.97fps runs at 2.25GB every five minutes; DV is only about 1GB every five minutes. So you doubled your file sizes for no reason.

There might have been a reason to batch-convert to conform the frame rates, eg. if the clips were actually at 30fps, instead of 29.97fps, and obviously for the wrong 14.99fps clips, but you do that with Compressor, not MPEG Streamclip. (By the way, can anybody else confirm my suspicions about MPEG Streamclip's problems with timecode above? I never use it for post prep, only for delivery.)

As for connecting one clip at a time, it's worth a try, but there's no guarantee it will work. First, backup your project file and date/time-stamp it. Then back it up to multiple drive locations. That's your safety copy.

Second, select the clip you want and go to Modify - Make Independent Clip. That should sever that instance of the clip (affiliate clip) from its master clip (in the Browser, and elsewhere on the timeline).

Now select the clip and press SHIFT-D. Choose "Leave Them [media] on Disk". It should disconnect only the single clip you'd made independent. If not, a simple Undo (APPLE-Z) can take you back.

If you're going to do that, however, chances are the clip still won't reconnect and preserve your editing decision, because the old source clip had a different time base. So even if you reconnect to a new clip with the same contents and good timecode, the cut will probably have shifted.

So, you need to find a way to manually conform your edit by eye. To do that properly, you need a "reference cut". In your case, you can't just export a movie file, because your edits shift during that process. I might strongly consider playing the unrendered version of your timeline and using a screen-capture software on the Canvas, and capturing the whole thing to a self-contained movie file. Use that as your "eye-match" reference when you manually conform. Normally I'd say you should edit the reference cut into your timeline using a picture-in-picture technique plus a visual timecode burn onscreen, so that you can literally see your intended cut and the footage you're conforming. But that may not be possible in your case, since screen-captured movie files also tend to have timecode issues when edited into an FCP timeline.

Have you tried exporting an EDL? That may help you check your edits. Again, given the jumbled timecode, not sure if that will work like it's supposed to.

This time, make sure you render the re-conformed clips and watch them. Don't just go and conform the whole timeline without rendering and checking. You need to make sure the new clip doesn't have the same old problem before you go and replace your entire timeline.


www.derekmok.com

simpler to just leave the original clip in the timeline as your guide,
and use replace edit (F9)

with timecode overlays on, and a little bit of rough maths,
it should be simple enough to get close to the correct frame,
then eye match.


nick

> simpler to just leave the original clip in the timeline as your guide,
> and use replace edit (F9)

Yes, if the original clip stays put. Not always a given when it comes to messed timecode. But if you don't skip the project-backup part, any screwups should be curable.

I tend not to use Replace Edit for this because I keep the original clips in the timeline for a while after the conform is completed, as a reference.


www.derekmok.com

thanks you guys so much. f9 doesn't seem to work on my apple keyboard for some reason.

my work around has been to create a save as... to get a new sequence with reconnected media files to 30fps... and then have the old sequence open with the 14.99 files and then try and eye-match the new clips with the slip function in the new sequence to match the old sequece. thanks for the slip instructions, nick! pressing "s" and then entering in + or minus values in the new clips until they pretty much match the old sequence. having to change up a few edits (because i get frustrated trying to get the old edits back perfectly), but after pulling out some hair... just digging into it. 3 minutes re-edited! hahaah.

derek -- for the future -- i guess i should experiment with compressor instead of mpeg streamclip when converting footage? i'm using strange toy cameras and exporting to apple prores hq made it so that i could edit in fcp without rendering till the end (but obviously messed me up this time as i forgot to change the frame rate on the one camera). the camera at 14.99 wasn't originally dv. it was originally an AVI file. yep, tapeless. it records onto a still camera memory card it is pixely and saturated as hell (which looks great). converting to prores might be enough though yeah? instead of prores hq? i'm blowing up the footage to 720X480 too. the AVI dimensions are smaller. but again, the pixels look cool so i don't mind it.

thanks -- working through it. might have to smoke one down so that i don't pull all my hair out and can relax a bit

ps: yes, i did a test and exported as a quicktime movie... and after fcp wrote the unrendered video down... saw the same video as in my new sequence. so don't worry. i'm not going to make the same mistake twice.

You can make f9 work correctly by going to your System Settings > Expose > and turning everything off.