Your Opinion: after FCP, what app?

I hope this question isn't too broad, but if one were generally proficient in FCP, what would be the second app or utility or skill set that you would look for in an all-round, good editor? Photoshop, perhaps? Or motion? I realize there are specialists, but, in general, what would a good editor know?

Just wondering...

Motion would be a VERY good one to learn. Great way to do titles and additional effects. Then, after that, AFTER EFFECTS.


www.shanerosseditor.com

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A "Good Editor" needs to be a GOOD EDITOR first. Timing / story-telling / Technical abilities / troubleshooter / problem solver. A "well-rounded" Editor needs to be a "Good Editor" with added proficiencies in Graphics & Compositing software packages (a big "PLUS" would be a well-intergrated 3D App like Cinema 4D).

From a Broadcast TV Studio perspective, I would disagree with Shane. Motion (though a nice program and I do use it) is not an app that our facility looks for when hiring. Currently, the standard for hiring new / freelance editors (Final Cut Pro & Avid), they MUST have AT LEAST proficient knowledge of After Effects 7 Pro / Photoshop CS2 minimum...period - THEN Motion & the rest of the FC Studio may be a "plus", but definitely not a requirement.

My opinion...a well-rounded editor (not so much a specialist - or straight "cutter" in the larger markets like LA & NY) also needs to be FLUENT in color theory and well versed in Color Correction & compositing techniques. Color Finesse, Magic Bullet Suite, Final Touch, etc are all "pluses" when hiring.

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

What's a good reference for After Effects? Where is the best article on it. Thanks.

I guess because I already know AE that I suggested Motion first. Yeah, FCP then AE.

Ref book: AFTER EFFECTS CLASSROOM IN A BOOK. Search Amazon for it. That is how I learned how to use it and use it well. Then go to the Creative Cow and watch the ENDLESS tutorials on how to do neat things with it.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Good training DVD just camed out from DVCreators. Its in the lafcpug store

After Effects 7 Powerstart

Michael Horton
-------------------

Avid, AE, PS, ILL, Cinema and/or Maya. I'm a dabbler in each. I do have a fondness for Motion. Joe, have you played with it yet? Have you checked out parameter behaviors? Totally sick stuff man. Totally hidden too unless some one showed you how to crack 'em open.

How about Final Draft? That way you can write your own screenplays and shorts you can shoot.
Gorrilla, so you can budget everything.

I've been messin' around with Quartz Composer which is in the Dev Tools install disk. Killer. You can make your own RSS screen savers with it. So simple to use too.

Don't forget some proficiency with ST Pro too. It's nice to be able to crank out a mix.
I like Garage Band too. If you have a USB keyboard and all the Jam Packs you can totally rock out.
I can plug my strat directly into my new iMac. Fun!

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead, DV Products
Adobe
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> I like Garage Band too. If you have a USB keyboard and all the Jam Packs you can totally rock
> out.
> I can plug my strat directly into my new iMac. Fun!

Too bad the built-in guitar sounds suck!

Line 6 Pod time.

I had a Steinberger Spirit (headless!) I used to get some very wacky effects through the Pod into GarageBand.

I think for GarageBand, Apple ought to consult some modelling company like Line 6, Korg or Boss/Roland. Some of the instrument sounds just don't do it for me. Especially the drums and strings.

And for some reason, I can't get my sustain pedal to work with that M-Audio 49e USB keyboard. Any experience with that, Kevin? Pointers?


www.derekmok.com

Quote

What's a good reference for After Effects? Where is the best article on it. Thanks.

GOOGLE: "After Effects Tutorials"

Quote

I do have a fondness for Motion. Joe, have you played with it yet? Have you checked out parameter behaviors?

I use Motion as sort of a "plug-in" for After Effects. I build & render elements with Straight (Unmatted) Alpha Channels that I use in AE composites. Great particle emitters built in. I have been getting hot & heavy into Cinema 4D which I am finding better & better integration with After Effects. HERE'S A FEW SAMPLES of my most recent C4D work (will be updating soon).

Peace

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Thanks you all for your thoughts. It would appear that AE leads the pack.

I learn by reading and am not much of a video tutorialist really. Shane's "Classroom in a book" recommendation seems highly regarded (thanks, Shane).

My small follow up question along this line would be: What BOOK then would you recommend for FCP itself?

Regards,

Steve

Again. Check the lafcpug store. Its one stop shopping. All of them are good. Depends on what hits your fancy.

[www.lafcpug.org]

Michael Horton
-------------------

May I recommend "Total Training" for After Effects -- it's an investment...but an actual classroom in a box.... Brian Maffitt does an amazing job explaining everything about After Effects. I had a rudimentary knowledge of AE for years until I started doing the Total Training tutorials. Absolutely changed the way I worked with program and what we could do. Never understood the 3d camera in AE until I did their tutorials and now some of our composites look like a million $$$$. It's an investment of time. I take a disk on long cross country plane trips and do my learning at 30 thousand feet. Andy

My suggestions would be:

Firstly read up on the technologies, the ones you use regularly, learn the correct way to do things and how to provide your output/online to an exact standard laid out by the distributer(s).

This means all the geek speak, tecnobabble and video engineering so you understand the importance of doing things correctly in the first place and not having to patch over patch over patch...

Learn about formats, framesize, framerates, colour space, safe area, pulldown, conversion, fields, progressive video, graphics, ITU standards, sound, hardware, maintenance, edit suite workflows, housekeeping, project management and even client appeasing & how to be a perfect host/gentleman in the suite especially when things aren't going well...

The language of TV/Film/Graphic media is also an area that everyone in it should be au fait with.

Learn how to simplify all you learn to explain it to your clients so they don't feel left out or that you are blinding them with science/tech.

Basically look at your work and learn as much about everything you use as humanly possible.

As far as apps are concerned? Photoshop first and foremost - it will come in more useful than any other app alongside FCP. Then look at Motion and After Effects.

The guys are right though - "a good editor" is just that, they edit well and in budget, on time. So learn to do that well and all the other skills are bonuses to you as an all-rounder.


Ben



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Thanks, all of you, for your sincere thoughtfulness.

Best,

Steve

First After Effects (Inc photoshop and Illustrator), then Shake in my opinion, depends on the type of work you want of course....

I do believe that if you learn AE there is no need for Motion however.

Johan Polhem
Motion Graphics
www.johanpolhem.com

Johan,

Where do you work for JWT? I just Art Directed / edited / composited a Bridgestone spot for JWT out of Atlanta through The Golf Channel.

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Hi Steve:

It was kind of tied in on this thread but my answer to you would be AVID, AVID, AVID! I work at a facility with 10 editors and we occasionally hire other freelancers when the workload becomes prohibitive. We often hire the best of the best to become "permalancers" people who are not staff but basically stay with us for years, not just for a job.

FCP is great, love FCP, know FCP, eat breathe and sleep FCP but if you walk through most doors in LA, if you don't know AVID, you can be the greatest FCP editor in the world but my boss will not hire you.

AE is great to know, really more of a necessity these days. Motion is sick, I love it, I am going through all of the Ripple Training's Motion DVD training right now and it's a great program for editors and producers.

But before I'd invest any time in learning either, learn the AVID.

Best,

Dan

[Thanks, all of you, for your sincere thoughtfulness. ]

Wait! I was just about to make 'spresso! (Gene Hackman, YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN)

It's such a rich subject, i wanted to log in, because I've had to wrestle with the question like many others.

The central skillset of editing -- not "cutting," but rather, decisions of selection, arrangement and pacing of content usually in collaboration with the director -- continues to expand into related disciplines-- we're sort of led into these by the demands of the show, the budget and the technology: because we can!! More and more manipulation over visual and aural quality as well as content shaping is now expected of us.

I don't believe this concept has caught on in Local 700, where editors are still expected to be editors and apprentice up, and effects specialists and audio folks work their own domains, but maybe someone who is fully hyphenated will update me.

On the freelance front, in unorganized pro venues, in small shops, there's tons more overlap, and so these questions keep coming up. They come up because young producers expect a vast skillset from their editors. This is naive and many get a quick education on limits to the job description. And there are lots of young editors who are eager to show off speed and glowing graphics, and that's fine too.

But to be very good, ILM good, or Pixar good, or Rthym and Hues or Orphanage good, you have to focus, there's no way around it. There's no room for dilletantes in the high end, and if you're aiming high, think about that question, "What next?" because the question assumes there's nothing left in editing to learn. And I don;t think that's true.

And the other danger of dilletante-ism is your own branding. "Well, he's sort of a Motion guy but he edits. Well, she comes from design, but she likes doing audio." Compare these recommendations to: "He's a pro editor." "She's a pro audio mixer." You earn these referrals over time, by being consistently skillful in one domain, running up a track record of successes, and anything else you offer is gravy. So from my POV, play the toys carefully and get yourself known as very good in one main area: your choice.

I think it's wise to have a working knowledge of immediately surrounding pro apps like Soundtrack Pro, Motion, Compressor, not only for the low budget and independent work but also to understand the grammar of heavy duty practitioners in each of these domains. It's not an accident these components surround Final Cut Pro, (although LiveType is something of a train wreck-- I just can't climb aboard that puppy, not certain why. I prefer Boris Calligraphy!!)

After Effects is already more deeply into vertical editing than i care to go, yet I've been there and understand it, successfully used it, along with opening titles using Infini-D, (today it would be Cinema 4D) so that when compositing and effects are called for, I can communicate what's needed to do a good job. ProTools is way richer than my needs in cutting a production track, yet I know enough about it to prepare my tracks for export to a real mixer and studio, something I learned at WGBH on Antiques Roadshow, as part of my duties -- not all of us started our careers the way Walter Murch did, in audio. A double major like that is not common. Part of your job as editor means you have to communicate and prepare for specialists.

On the other hand, if you haven't mastered intermediate Photoshop for video, you'd best attend to that, it is indispensable to editors preparing scans and support graphics for import. I learned it on the go. It doesn't hurt to know lllustrator eiither-- it offers superior typography, and once you've been there the FCP Command-Shift-A command for "Deselect All" is familiar.

FC Studio is a darn good concept for all these reasons, and it's one area Avid is weak.

Now that you ask, "What's next?" I would look at Media Composer! But sometimes if you're lucky you can ask your employer-- what you like me to learn? And some actually know the answer! Then you can negotiate a salary increase after proving your facility in the app without compromising your essential branding.

- Loren
Today's FCP 4 / 5 keytip:
Do a virtual Audio Mixdown to lighten playback load with Command-Option-R!

The FCP KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
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But to be very good, ILM good, or Pixar good, or Rthym and Hues or Orphanage good, you have to focus, there's no way around it. And the other danger of dilletante-ism is your own branding. "Well, he's sort of a Motion guy but he edits. Well, she comes from design, but she likes doing audio." Compare these recommendations to: "He's a pro editor." "She's a pro audio mixer."

I agree with Loren. Multitasking by necessity takes you away from editing, and these days they're asking editors to also do effects, sound mixing, web design, DVD design and encoding, onlining. I don't do any non-FCP effects, but I still get work because I'm six times faster than the company's old editor, and I speak four languages that are essential to the markets they're working in.

Also, while it doesn't happen with everybody, graphics work can make you a worse editor. I beat out eight or nine graphics-savvy "editors" to become Chief Editor on a reality show where the others had spent so much time coming up with neat ways to arrange pictures and shapes that they'd forgotten to cut the show's meat. For four weeks they couldn't come up with a viable half-hour show template. It took me two days, and at that point with no TV experience -- I didn't even know what a lower 3rd was. My lack of interest in graphics was a boon in this case because I had to find some other way to impress.

The very good graphics/editor hybrid people will, of course, tell you that the show comes first; the graphics have to serve the storytelling, rhythm, tone. But it's easy to get seduced into AfterEffects, Motion, Shake -- all the toys that can give great results, but can also distract you from the central task of putting together the show. You gotta keep grounded and use those tools when you need them, to supplement the editing task rather than annex it.


www.derekmok.com

I'm glad someone said AVID. It should have been the first comment. If the first poster wants to pursure editing, then definitely, Avid. Photoshop and how it fits into the video workflow, and a lot of the remaining CS2 suite are also a must for either platform. Beyond that, I think one starts getting into the art creation thing (like with AE), which is a different mentality entirely. Not bad, just a different path. However, it's useful to know AE/Motion to make quick animated backgrounds when editing.

BTW - I'm an FCP-lovin' and -usin' guy who came from AVID (hate it, actually), but the jobs that I see and for which I interview are 100% AVID.

HarryD

I am the original poster and thank you again for all for your marvelous insights.

I see a small divide has opened up in the later responses, between those who see editing as a more localized domain and those who have reason to view editing to include what might be called the many boutique skills that are required nowadays.

May I ask an additional follow-up question?

Some have expressed that a knowledge of AVID is a must. Leaving aside the personal pros and cons between AVID and FCP for the moment, would I be correct to say -- as it seems to me -- that AVID is now in the decendant and, though it is still used widely, it will soon yield to FCP as the default NLE, if for no other reason than the new and next generation of editors have not cut their teeth on it, but FCP?

Warm regards, all,

Steve

Steve-

In my opinion, each company continues to one-up the other with new features, interoperability, capabilities. They're now both very important in the industry, something you couldn't say about FCP just a few years ago.

You should have seat time in both major NLE's. So it's a great time to be an editor. It's a terrible time to be an editor. What else is new? ;-)

- Loren

Today's Xpress Pro 4.x keytip:
Loop Play In to Out with Control-6 (Alt-6 in Windows)

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Now available at
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Hi, Steve,

It's certainly an honest question you have posed.

To answer the first question, no I don't see a decline in Avid's use at all. Schools - including the university where i used to teach - were Avid houses because of that product's concentration in the market. Every large pro post house I have been to (in the Mid Atlantic region) has used Avid. My read is that Avid seems to be the first choice of broadcast and film post. Does this mean it's better? No, it means that it's been around the longest and editors and facilities alike have large investments in time and money in using them.

Will it remain so? I think only so long as editors and facilities continue to buy into the Avid line, then yes, things will remain this way.

My take on FCP is that it's at least as good, is cheaper, and much easier to use. Therefore, it has been bought by individuals making films and lot of places in small markets, including government and education. I see FCP as the primary tool in indie editorial, again, because of its cost and ease of use.

About divisions; I don't actually see a divide opening up in the thinking here. There are different markets with different requirements. Large markets have lots of people and therefore the competition is much more fierce, therefore you'd better be the best you can be at what you're trying to do. Smaller markets, however, and small post houses in particular, need to get "bang for the buck," and that includes the performance of the people that work there. If a small post house has enough work to keep 2 full time editors busy, but no more, can they afford to hire a full time motion graphic artist for things, too? If there's a calling for it, yes. But if the need is only occasional, and the full time editor is "good enough" in AE and/or Motion to please the clients, well, you get the point. It's all about the need of the market.

Hope this helps. But learn Avid to make yourself the most versatile EDITOR. Study art and design and then learn After Effects to move into motion graphics.

HarryD

Steve,

It seems that the answer to your question is becoming as fragmented as the diverse backgrounds of the community responding. All suggestions are valid, you've just got to determine what's best for you and your own career goals.

Harry D,
I know you're an "FCP lovin' guy", but your comment, "Every large pro post house I have been to (in the Mid Atlantic region) has used Avid. My read is that Avid seems to be the first choice of broadcast and film post.... I see FCP as the primary tool in indie editorial, again, because of its cost and ease of use." seems a bit out of touch with what I'm seeing here in Los Angeles.

I think your perception of FCP's acceptence in the professional, broadcast market is at least a year behind the reality that I'm observing here on the Coast. If you don't believe me, go to the AVID L-2 and lurk for awhile. There you'll find plenty of evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, of how FCP is invading the very heart of the commercial, broadcast and film market.

Mark

mark raudonis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I think your perception of FCP's acceptence in
> the professional, broadcast market is at least a
> year behind the reality that I'm observing here on
> the Coast. If you don't believe me, go to the
> AVID L-2 and lurk for awhile. There you'll find
> plenty of evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, of
> how FCP is invading the very heart of the
> commercial, broadcast and film market.
>
> Mark


OK, well, if FCP is making inroads that's great. I hope it's true.

But 2 months ago I interviewed for a position at Sinclair Broadcasting in Baltimore and it was an AVID house throughout the entire corporation. I wasn't hired because my AVID chops are a little stale (I've been working exclusively with FCP for the last 5 years). And Sinclair is using Newscutter, one of the less functional but faster products Avid offers.

My experience with the ITVA in DC is similar, the higher one goes the more likely it is that the facility is AVID. Although, I have seen some FCP users there (albeit mostly in government and independants, where one also sees a lot pf PC products as well).

Other places where I have seen FCP the dominant product is in educational media centers (the ones that make media, not the ones that are for student use), where money is always tight.

My take is that the more money in the location, the more likely it is that they have been using NLE for awhile, and that means they bought into Avid long ago, and have an investment that they are not likely to abandon easily. Thus, Avid dominance in the higher-dollar field.

So no matter what your perception of what other people say on another forum, my reality is different.

BDPlaid,

Next time you're in Los Angeles, I'll take you on a tour of post houses, production companies and studios that have adopted FCP x-SAN for many of their "high dollar" productions. Most of the community here rents their production and post gear which makes switching a much easier decision. Furthermore, in the "trend conscious" advertising community, where image is everything,and the desire to be using the latest "hot" tools is great, FCP has achieved a strong foothold.

For many of these installations, the decision to switch was NOT just about money.

I'm sure your reality is what it is. Just know that in other areas, the situation may be different than what you know.

Mark

Mark,

I appreciate that info, and I'm glad to hear FCP is in solid gound out there. As i said, I am a converted Avid editor, and I thought FCP was superior even at V3. It's used solidly here, too, but if one wants to work, he'd better darned well know Avid.

Interestingly, I was recently privvy (sp?) to the donation of a bunch of old Avid stuff to a local university (it was unusable junk, btw; that's what tax write-offs are for, i guess); the person donating had a post and rental facility in NY and he upgraded all of his Media Composers to - you guessed it, more Avid. There's a strong market on the east coast for Avid. And from what I read in the magazines, it's still that way on the west coast, too. I don't dispute what you say, just wondering what percentage of commercial Hollywood films are posted on Avid, since that's what I usually see?

BTW - tours not necessary, unless there is an alcohol stop in between every one. By the end we might be thinking Premiere is best! :-)

thanks,

HarryD

i dont think this is a thread about "best" is it?

Impossible to say how many post houses or individuals or studios or government media centers or churches or cable channels or TV stations or corporations use FCP or Avid or Vegas for that matter. Unless the marketing boys hire a bunch of interns to go and find out. (And far as I know they may have.)

Fact remains FCP has made a big dent here in Los Angeles and more and more individuals and post houses and studios are making the switch as well as editors on major motion pictures and TV shows. How do I know? Not a day goes by where I don't get an email from someone "switching." These "someones" are not just Indy filmmakers but editors working at well known post houses and studios, some of whom have to learn FCP because the shop is switching. Or some just got a gig on feature and they are looking for an FCP Guru/assistant to get them up to speed. Or, and I admit these are the majority, long time Avid editors wanting to learn FCP because they feel they have to learn it to stay employable. (Paranoia is a good thing to have in the entertainment industry.)

Sure Avid is firmly entrenched in Hollywood and will remain so for our lifetime, - unless they completely screw up. But what is really remarkable here is how fast Apple has grown this market. It's astounding when you think of it. Are the people who work there really that visionary or did they just get lucky beginning with Firewire and DV?

In any event none of us really care who is using what tool, but if you are a freelancer it's a good idea to learn both. Who knows, Vegas might enter this conversation in the next 2 years.

Things change so fast.

Michael Horton
-------------------

Not starting up the "best" argument. I do both FCP and Avid here in L.A. The company I work freelance for has been renting Avid systems on and off for 2 1/2 years from a rental facility in Studio City. The rental house is all Avid. In that time frame they went from about 100 Avid systems for rent to over 300. They are busier than hell. And, as noted FCP has been growing phenomenally. The entire post industry has been growing hugely, especially as FCP has enabled more people to own their own at an own-your-own price point.

You have to gauge your market. In L.A. good editors, whether FCP or Avid will find work. Maybe not in other markets. If you know both how can you not work?

Now, just my opinion, but I think that learning After Effects/Photoshop/Illustrator gives you alot more career choices than just staying within the FCP Suite, until the FCP/Shake mystery project is brought to market.

A 3D app is great but there is a substantial time investment/learing curve so it's not for everyone.

If you're an indie filmmaker, you're better off sticking with FCP -- otherwise you'll go broke buying both systems. LOL

If you're looking for work or are in a company that uses both, then by all means you should learn both AVID and FCP.

If you're an indie filmmaker and you want to jazz up your editing a bit more than what's available in FCP Studio, then you have a lot to choose from in additional applications.

As an all around filmmaker, I'm interested to learn what's the next best software I should buy and use. Learning it is no problem, I can come here and ask someone. LOL

But seriously, it seems that After Effects is the one that got the most votes. Now if I only knew one thing that After Effects did then I could say something about it. LOL