output 23.98 to 29.97 with proper 3:2 pull-down

Hello,

I am trying to output a 23.98 sequence to 29.97 DVcam with a proper 3:2 pull-down for an online session. I've done this successfully in the past (with FCP 5.0) but no luck with this. (I'm now on 5.1.2 on a G5 Power PC.)

Instead of blended BC CD frames, I get "hold" frames, with the same frame repeated. When I try to reverse I get blended frames so it's unuseable for the online.

This is a film project, cut in a 24 frame sequence, but I was advised that I needed to output from a 23.98 sequence in order to get the proper pull-down. I converted to 23.98 in Cinema Tools 3.1.2 but the issue is the same.

My system settings are for 2:3:2:3 pulldown, and "use playback settings" for output to tape. I've tried every other version I could think of too, to see why it won't work.

Anyone have this issue? A fast answer is much appreciated as we may lose our online session...

Thanks so much,

Karen

> I am trying to output a 23.98 sequence to 29.97 DVcam with a proper 3:2 pull-down for an
> online session.
> This is a film project, cut in a 24 frame sequence
> My system settings are for 2:3:2:3 pulldown

A film telecined, then edited at 24fps, then converted to 23.98fps, then to have 2:3 pulldown added back in during a DVCam output, then to be onlined from another format at that rate (29.97fps)?

What exactly are you trying to end up with?


www.derekmok.com

Hi,
Sorry, I know it's confusing.

The 29.97 tape will be captured and reversed to use as a reference to the 24 frame online. We're going back to film, with a DI. So the 23.98 is only because FCP wasn't putting the pull-down on the 24 fps.

We have also submitted a QT file of the movie as a reference but they want a tape as well.

My main question remains: why isn't FCP 5.1.2 putting a 3:2 pull-down on the footage when I edit to tape, or print to video?

Thanks so much for replying.

Karen

<<<My main question remains: why isn't FCP 5.1.2 putting a 3:2 pull-down on the footage when I edit to tape>>>

I don't think Fincl Cut has ever done that. They just double up frames. This isn't an Avid.

This is why Cine Tools or Nattress was produced. That should have worked--although I did run into troubles because Cine Tools will not work across the 24.00/23.976 barrier (that I was able to find).

Koz

Karen,

As far as I know this shouldn't be a problem. I've done this plenty of times on film projects. But it's impossible to really know what's going on here without details. What exactly is your workflow? Did you shoot on film? What did you telecine too. How'd you get from 29.97 to 24? Cinema tools (reverse telecine or conform) or a capture card? You need to lay it all out.

Most importantly, we need telecine details, especially the pulldown cadence. You're seeing doubled frames instead of blended bc,cd frames. This might be normal. I've always had a cadence of a,d,c,d,d, so the doubled frame is correct in that instance.

Try outputting a take from dailies to tape, then digitize it and compare it to the original.

Right off the bat, assuming it's a film project, I'd say that cutting in 24 instead of 23.98 might be the problem.

Final Cut won't add 2:3, but I think the Kona II AJA services will. I'm pretty sure it won't if you go out the FireWire port.

That burns a lot of people.

Koz

It won't?! Maybe I'm crazy or we're talking about different things. But I've been able to output
frame accurate 29.97 tapes from 23.98 projects. They match a 29.97 edl perfectly every time via firewire/RS422. I've used these tapes for composer dubs and online reference and nobody's complained. If that's not re-insertion of 3:2 pulldown, then what is it?

What I've always done in the past when delivering features (I'm currently cutting my fourth on FCP) is burn a dvd of each reel and then take it to a facility that can transfer that dvd it to tape with burnt in TC and Feet and Frames. It's always dead accurate. I've found that going to any tape format from FCP in a film finish project is always a little wonky, no matter what your input or ouput devices, cards, etc. But dvds are alway frame accurate with the proper pull down.

I'm really curious as to what has been "wonky" about your tapes.

And here's what the FCP 5 manual says on pg 526 of volume 3...

"Pulldown Pattern: If your sequence has a frame rate (timebase) of 23.98 or 24 fps and
you want to output to an NTSC or PAL device via FireWire, you can choose one of five
pull-down insertion patterns. Pull-down insertion is a method of converting film or
other progressively scanned material to an interlaced format running at a different
frame rate. For more information, see the Cinema Tools documentation. These options
are available only when your sequence has a frame rate (timebase) of 23.98 or 24 fps."

The following two pages diagram the different interlaced frame patterns, depending on which you choose.

Yes, but.

They can't do environment conversion. You can't start with 24.00 and end up with 29.97. I don't think any of the documentation tells you that it's possible to do that.

Koz

Absolutely, it's got to be from 23.98 to 29.97

The problem starts with the occasional dropped frame and then usually we'd get a few cuts made 1-2 frames late or early. Maybe it has something to do with having our media on firewire drives. Maybe on a raid it's faster and more accurate.

Hi JoeE.

Ok, 23,98 or 24 it´s just about the same, Final cut manages both almost the same way when adding pull down. (Just drops a frame every other time on 23,98). Which pull down to use is selected on "RT" pull down when using a 24 or 23,98 timeline. Normaly 2:3:2:3 is the default one.
I think you are having other problem. Maybe using "Playback quality" on print to video is the cause, specially if you are using Dynamic Playback and Dymanic Quality(Only good for realtime playback, not for a final master) or maybe you are even using Unlimited RT and your harddisks are not keeping up with your Systems usage.
By the way, i just finished a 24 to 23,98 to Tape (2:3:2:3) 29,97 with pulldown print to video and it works fine here, FC 5.1.2.

Hope it helps.