OT: Sleep is for SISSIES!

Hey Gang,
Have you ever heard, "Sleep is for SISSIES"? This usually comes from a producer riding your bee-hind on a 70 hour straight session. Sure, we've all been there. Sleep deprivation is cast off as "part of the territory" in the film business. We readily accept not getting enough sleep. Hey, we're "tough guys" and "heck yeah we can work all night" if it means 75 bones an hour.

We all laugh at the guy who passes out in the bay during break and begins snoring. We brush off the fact that the same guy seems to be nodding off in between cuts as the day goes on. The producer becomes impatient because the editor seems lost, disorganized and lacks direction. "Hmmm? What's up with that guy?" The producer wonders.

It's not so funny if the same guy begins snoring at a meeting in front of an important client, or this nightmare?passing out behind the wheel on the 405 on the way home from work killing or greatly injuring themself or worse, other people.

"Who Needs Sleep?" is a doc by legendary cinematographer Haskell Wexler that you should really see.

Quote

In 1997, after a 19-hour day on the set, assistant cameraman Brent Hershman fell asleep behind the wheel, crashed his car, and died. Deeply disturbed by Hershman's preventable death, filmmaker and multiple-Oscar-winning cinematographer Haskell Wexler shows how sleep deprivation and long work hours are a lethal combination. WHO NEEDS SLEEP? is a commentary on our quality of life.

[www.whoneedssleep.net]

See the movie and let me know what you think!

I would wager that many of us operate in a permanent state of sleep deprivation, due to forced working conditions, chronic insomnia (due to worry, or things like smoking tobacco or drinking near bedtime), sleep apnea, restless legs syndrome or overall poor sleep hygene. Add to this a bed partner that may be exhibiting any of the above that affects your sleep and you've got one unhappy camper.

Sleep Deprivation and sleep disorders rob us of good health and our livlihood. Not getting "enough of", or getting "the wrong kind" (No REM or Delta Stages) of sleep is rampant in American society. It is said that over 60% of all Americans have some regular disorder keeping them from ever getting good rest.

Herein lies the rub:
Even if you put in 8 hours, things like sleep apnea or insomnia will not conciously wake you, but you will NEVER get to REM or Delta?the restorative stages of sleep, because your disorders will not allow it. So just because you are unconcious, you may NOT really be "sleeping". Your batteries never get recharged.

Even worse, you could die in your sleep from heart attack or stroke caused by something like sleep apnea. I've already lost one colleague that died from a heart attack in their sleep (who prob'ly had apnea but did not do anything about it), and I'd hate to lose another. Things like sleep apnea can KILL you in your sleep. That is the bottom line and why this is serious stuff and why 1 night taking a sleep test can save your life.

Add this to the fact that each of us are very poor judges of our OWN fatigue, and that "sleeping is for sissies", then you can see why we as humans have such a bad problem with sleep disorders. If I were president, I'd make a sleep test a requirement prior to giving them a driver's license. I do believe it's that serious. Recent studies indicate that more people die in auto accidents from falling asleep at the wheel than from drunk drivers. How crazy is that?

My Story
For the past 20 years or so, I myself have been operating in a state of constant sleep deprivation due to my bad case of Obstructive Sleep Apnea (OSA). I have known for years that I have had it to some extent, as family and friends complained about my horrendous snoring. But since I am a single dude and live alone, I didn't bother anyone. So I put it off. I didn't think it affected me too badly. Boy, was I wrong! You can never have an objective perspective until you have a Sleep Test, called a "Polysomnogram", done by a Sleep Tech and get treatment (usually a mask and CPAP machine).

I am disappointed in myself for not getting it taken care of sooner, but I'm now glad I did finally go through the process of getting a sleep test (the test was done in my apartment, no hassle) and getting treatment over the holidays.

I myself fell into the lie that "sleep is for sissies". However, now I have found a way to treat my disorder (I wear a nasal mask and use a CPAP machine). I feel fantastic! Reborn with incredible O2 fueled energy, especially in the morning. The mask and machine kinda suck, but I am getting used to it. Once I'm asleep, who cares? I am sleeping for 8 hours straight for the first time in years.

This newfound energy gives me the motivation to exercise and so that is benefitting me in another way. I feel more organized and thoughtful. My memory is coming back and I feel less confused. I have a noticeable boost to my creativity and options for cuts come to me with little effort. All kinds of benefits and no more nightmare stories of nearly falling asleep at the wheel on the way home from work.

My point for making this post is to ask you to look at you and your immediate family and ask yourself honestly, "Am I getting good sleep?" "Do I have good sleep hygene?" "Does my wife?" "My Kids?". I have done this and found out my dad has restless legs and my nephew's overgrown tonsils are causing sleep apnea. Survey your own family and bring up the subject to friends. It's that important.

Good Sleep Hygene is the cornerstone of good health and happiness.

For all my friends and colleagues I am going to make a challenge: and that's to join the "Great American Sleep Challenge". This gives you an opportunity to find out more about good tips for getting restful and healthy sleep, and to screen you and your family for potential problems with your sleep hygene.

Sign up here:
[www.sleepfoundation.org]

Thanks for listening.

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead, DV Products
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Kev,

You need a nap

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Good one Joey. You are a dad, I think. So you definitely know what sleep deprivation is all about.

So tell me. What was your longest session? Was driving home from that gig difficult? I did a 3 day session once. Never again!

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead, DV Products
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Been there, done that. Now I work from home, so the office to bed commute is 10 feet. I often don't make it.

My longest session? 32 hours. Quite useless near the end. I can't imagine a 72 hour session!

and I remember that accident. Quite tragic. Left a wife and kids.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Kevin and I talked about this very thing while tearing raffle tickets for the FCPUG SuperMeet last week.

I'll tell you all what I told him.

I was sleep deprived for nigh on 15 years, from high school until my late 20's. I did have one incident where I fell asleep at the wheel. Luckily, I spun out into the median. I didn't even scratch the car. I could have seriously hurt someone, and I don't take that lightly.

I think I was 29 when I decided this was no way to live, and I went to my doctor. I won't bore you with the deatils of the diagnosis.

What I will tell you is that within six months of starting a regimen intended to increase the quantity and the quality of my sleep, everything in my life changed.

I finally was able to see that the facility I had been working full time for the past 6 years had changed, and we were going in different directions. I chose to leave that job and start my own business. I lost quite a bit of weight, and I had much more energy than ever before. Six months later, I met my husband. Now that I sleep, everything in my life is going along pretty darn well. My business is booming, and, well, some of you know my husband. You know I got really lucky there! Some of the weight has come back, but that has much more to do with herniated disks and pinched nerves that keep me less mobile than anything else...

I laugh now at the people who tell me "sleep is for sissies". I know better, and I truly feel sorry for those who believe it. It makes everything in your life way more difficult than it needs to be. It doesn't make you a stronger person. In fact, it makes you weaker. Ask any parent with a newborn, at least one who used to sleep well...

Every once and awhile, I find myself slipping back into old bad habits, and after just a few days, I can feel the difference. That's enough to kick me into action and to knock off whatever I've been doing, such as drinking coffee at night, or turning on the TV at midnight, "just for a few minutes".

It's not an easy path to take, to break old habits and to re-learn how to sleep, but it is worth it!

deb

Although this topic is really not suitable for the Cafe its important enough to so many of us, that I think it stays.

As an actor I cant tell you how many 22 hour days I did during my career. Although Unions, especially SAG, make the producers pay handsomely to go over a 12 hour day, it is still common practice to this day. Pity the poor editor who does not have a powerful union behind him/her to say - enough! Of course apnea is a different thing, but falling asleep on the way home will kill you too. And often someone else.

Michael Horton
-------------------

Kevin,

Thank you so much for sharing, man. I can totally sypathize. I found out I suffered from sleep apnea about 8-9 years ago. I was fortunate to have a loving mother who noticed my horrible snoring and me constantly stop breathing in my sleep. I remember a day when I was driving with a friend in the car and him having to wake me up because I was falling alseep as I was coming to a red light. I had know idea what sleep apnea was until I went and had a sleep study done on myself. Pretty much the same thing Kevin said, attached a few diods and c-pap machine.

I've been sleeping with a c-pap ever since and Kevin, I totally relate! THE BEST SLEEP YOU'VE EVER HAD IN YOUR LIFE!!!! One of the worst things you'll ever experience though (particullarly after you've been using your c-pap for a while) is when you have to go on some overnight trip and you forget to include your c-pap in your luggage. YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO SLEEP A LICK! You're going to wonder, how did I seem to sleep all of those years without a c-pap, and now I can't sleep...without a c-pap.

I really hope many take a minute to truly examine what Kevin has brought up today. Sleep apnea is a truly serious disease that, similar to hypertension, is something you could live with for years and never be aware you have it because you don't know any different. You've slept the better part of you life as a snorer, but never knowing your slowly dieing. Anything that causes you to stop breathing in your sleep has to be serious.

If you ever feel extremly tired even after a full night sleep. If you feel like no matter how much sleep you get, it never feels like enough. If you ever feel constantly groggy, irritable, and fatigued. If people are constantly telling you, "You have a really bad snoring problem!" Take the time to have a sleep study done. It's truly one of the easiest tests you'll ever have to take because literally, all you have to do is sleep. This could be a life changing event that could truly improve your entire quality of life.

Thanks again for sharing, Kevin.

Steven Gladney

Sometimes the obvious is hidden in plain view.

Thanks Mike. I'm only bummed that Steve didn't come out with the iCPAP at Macworld!

Quote

?We are the only group of industrialized workers in the world fighting for a 14-hour day?
Michael Everett, electrician

More quotes here.

So does anyone here snore, like every night?
Or do you fall sleepy in the afternoon? Driving Home?
Or is your neck larger than 17"?

These are signs of apnea.

BTW, the "Sleep is for Sissies" is a tag line Debe told me when we were talkin' at the SuperMeet.

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead, DV Products
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Adobe After Effects and Premiere Pro Community Blog
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Good post, Kevin. The whole "You're part of the filmmaking team, you should sacrifice" thing can be poisonous -- a number of producers I know use that to squeeze the crew dry while they drive around in Benzes and show up four hours a day.

Longest I've gone is two 30-hour sessions back to back, six hours off in between. They don't count, though, because it was to log, capture, edit and temp-sound-mix my own thesis film.


www.derekmok.com

Great thread, Kevin. Thanks for bringing it up.

My sleep is interrupted by my stupid dog every morning @ 5:30AM. He wants to eat breakfast... and he wants it NOW! I ignore his pleading, but my wife is a softie, so she gets up and feeds him. Consequently, I don't need an alarm clock and I usually beat the traffic on the way to work!

As for the "marathon" edit sessions: I could never understand why anyone would think that someone can be productive for more than 10 hrs. As I see it, such sessions just speak to a lack of planning or organization on the producer's part. I've been doing this for quite a few years and I can tell you that we rarely go into overtime on anything. It's a "lose-lose" situation. You're not gonna get great creativity from a tired editor and the final results will suffer.

Plan ahead. Allow enough time to do the job! It's a shame that it takes a loss of a life to make people aware of the stupidity of their ways.

Sleep apnea is one thing. It's a condition that should be treated. Stupid schedules are a condition that should also be treated... by not enabling self-centered, inconsiderate producers to put you in that position.

Mark

a client of mine told me this story a few years ago (a story that sadly, ive yet to fully implement)

---------------------------------------------

"there are two teams of miners. they are told that the team that produces the most coal after one week will be awarded the contract for the whole mine. so they each got busilly to work.

day after day goes by and one team works late into each night. stopping only breifly for an hour or two of sleep. the other team mysteriously dissapears every day at about 6pm.

by the end of the week, the team that worked late into the night had only HALF as much coal as the other team. and as such, lost the contract.

bewildered, the captain of the losing team walks over and asks the winning captain '"How'd you do it? You guys quit every day at 6pm?!?!?!?" the winning captain replied "At the end of each workday, we SHARPENED OUR PICKS."

always be sure to sharpen your pick.

---------------------------------------------

on the naughty note - my record was late last summer. back to back deadlines. 73 hours straight with a 2.5 hour nap at the 53rd hour.

for me its been a matter of two things: FIRST is that historically, i make some of my best CREATIVE decisions on either a few glasses of scotch or on about 28 hours of consciousness. and for both situations i keep either a sofa or big comfy easychairs in the office. and SECOND is pure greed! when youre looking at $10,000 a day of invoiceable work, a person starts saying to themsleves - " i can sleep on thursday!" or my personal scapegoat " there'll be time for sleeping when im dead"

Mike,

This is totally relevant ot the Café...the masochists in the group will chime in fully!

Hiya Kev,

LOL...this subject (gone through many times) always seems to wake up the same vivid sense memory of eyes burning, cold pizza, taco bell, pop tarts, Mt. Dew, stinky clothes, cold coffee, bad jokes and the back of my legs stickin' to a leather chair (working in shorts). When I get locked in on a project, the line I always give my clients when they say "...you have been at it for 3 days straight?" is "I'll sleep when I'm dead."

Yup...I am a Dad. Sleep Deprivation comes with the territory. Been going on an average of 4 hrs per night for almost 9 years now. My longest session most recently was 53 hours. No unions in Florida, mates. I do whatever it takes to get the job done on time (sort of my tag line in my cover letter / resume).

Yeah...I do snore & nod off while driving home from my full-time gig. I literally have to pinch my thigh really hard to wake the #$@! up on I-4 so I don't drift into another lane & hit someone...like now it's 3:15 AM and I am getting up at 7:30 for work. My son is still awake (I think he has some kind of internal combustion engine that never runs out of gas). Maybe it's my snoring. My Wife, who loves me (somebody has to), tells me she loves my snoring. She says it's "home".

Great topic, Kev Back to work...ROW...ROW...ROW...ROW...ROW

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

While I admire your endurance, Joe, gotta keep the important things in mind too. Your wife and kid are more important than a client with no sense of scheduling. We filmmakers sometimes operate in a different world mentally and we have to remember that life isn't just about moving images!


www.derekmok.com

D,

Endurance / clients / moving images have nothing to do with it, bro... it's sheer will and the need for $$$. I am working towards a goal...we are financing an International Adoption and they are not cheap, my friend. My Wife leaves for Ukraine on Thursday for 5 weeks while I stay home with our son. That 53 hr session was a freelance gig at home in my tidy whiteys I wish every gig was like that - it's the FULL TIME GIG that's killin' me. I always get hit with the "We vs. Me" $h!t and I shouldn't speak up when I have to stay late because somebody else f**ked up. I swallow it all year - and for what? A stellar review & a whopping 4% raise. Thank the lord for the benes, that's all I can say.

Gotta...sleeeeep.

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Whether you choose to sleep deprive yourself:
a) by forcing the long hours on yourself (like you Joey)
b) by not treating your sleep disorder like apnea (like me)
c) by not engaging in good sleep hygene (smoking, drinking, no reg. bedtime)

Or are sleep deprived by coersion or circumstance:
a) by a demanding boss or client
b) by a demanding family member, like a baby

It's all the same: Sleep Deprivation is BAD NEWS.

And you cannot blow it off. You need to handle it or be ready to pay the price.
People die in their sleep because of apnea. Sleep deprived insomniacs run innocents off the road. It's a real problem.

Read this: [www.saljournal.com]

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead, DV Products
Adobe
Adobe After Effects
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Adobe After Effects and Premiere Pro Community Blog
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i kind of feel like a jack-ass for asking, but since we talking about general good health and quality of life here - isnt sleep apnea [most often] suffered by those who are significantly overweight?

id be curious to see the statistics of untimely deaths attributed to falling asleep at the wheel as opposed to those by the various symptoms of a bad diet and lack of excersise...

i find myself most productive when i eat properly (graze throughout the day as opposed to starving until im forced to dash out for a taco bell feast) and find at least 3 times a week to get a half hour or so of good cardio activity.

im the first one to fire back with " i dont have the time to plan and pack food" or "im too busy to go excersise" - but thats really hogwash. if you make time, it will pay you back in energy, mood and overall quality of living.

wayne granzin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i kind of feel like a jack-ass for asking, but
> since we talking about general good health and
> quality of life here - isnt sleep apnea suffered
> by those who are significantly overweight?

A good number of folks with the disease also duel with
obesity, yes. But OSA can be attack the skinny folks too.
The way your neck is built, whether or not you were breast
fed as a child, if you have a deviated septum or broken nose.
So while heavier folks suffer more, apnea attacks folks of all size.

In fact, many people have apnea while they are thin and if they do
not treat it, they become overweight because your body does
not perform its normal function as it is starved for Oxygen. I used to
weigh so much less, so apnea packs it on. So that's another reason to
take care of it.

> id be curious to see the statistics of untimely
> deaths attributed to falling asleep at the wheel
> as opposed to those by the various symptoms of a
> bad diet and lack of excersise...

Impossible to know.

> i find myself most productive when i eat properly

Me too.

> im the first one to fire back with " i dont have
> the time to plan and pack food" or "im too busy
> to go excersise" - but thats really hogwash. if
> you make time, it will pay you back in energy,
> mood and overall quality of living.

I've used that excuse to death. Moving to LA has spun me in a positive direction. I am exercising more now that I have a gym inside my apartment community. There's a park
nearby too. The whole sleep thing has improved my overall well being. I'm glad I took care
of that. I'm still struggling a bit, but getting there.

I like to listen to the Digi Production Buzz while I take my jog-walks around NoHo park. Mikey, you crack me up sometimes and I get stares from the locals when I laugh out loud.

I get so worried about the young guys (and girls) I see working stupid hours trying to make a deadline and then driving home. I know they think it's cool and a bit exciting - like some sort of initiation thing, because I used to do it myself and brag about it too.

Now I'm older and more secure in my business, and I tell producers up front that I won't do more than 14 hours a day, and then only under extreme circumstances.

Producers who are so badly organised that they have an 'extreme circumstance' at least once a week (you know who you are) are risking other people's lives. And sadly I contribute, in a way, by telling them that I won't do it, and forcing them to employ someone else - generally someone young and keen for a break - to do the grunt work in stupidly long stints.

I always try to tell them not to do it, but they don't see that if no-one did it the producers would be forced to be more organised. That and the charge $200 p/h pay $11 p/h thing are my biggest beefs in this industry. There's no need for either.

I just sent a producer off to the audio studio. He's hoping to be back with tracks for me to restripe by the end of the day.

I told him that my clock doesn't necessarily stop at 5, but if he knows they'll be working on the audio past 5 to let me know. I might try to sneak in a nap! I need to get these track in and make a DVD for an approval meeting tomorrow morning.

These days I just try to work it into the conversation. I try to let them know before it becomes an issue that I am willing to go the extra mile when necessary, but let's not make that the norm. It's a nice little ice breaker, and I don't necessarily feel like I'm busting their chops telling them that when the project falls apart and I do need to put in 14 hours. Sometimes it's not necessarily their fault.

I just make a joke about "yeah, it got to the point that I was taking two steps back for every step forward. I figured that was poor use of the client's money, so I packed it in..."

About once a year I get one weird project that causes me to have to pull an all-nighter. Sometimes it's poor planning. Sometimes it's equipment malfunction. Once it was editor malfunction! I went very far down a wrong path and had to back track and practically start over once. Luckily, if I'm working on someone else's system, I have a husband that'll pick me up if necessary.

Plus, when I'm working on my own system, it's a lot easier. I commute in slippers! I only run the risk of running a cat off the road, er stairs, not another driver!

deb

LOVE this thread! My New years Rez this year was to get more and better sleep. You have inspired me to get a test now, I'm going to look into it.

I have a 13 year old hound dog alarm clock, 5:30/6 in the morning... that means I need to get to bed earlier, or else take a nap, 2 really hard habits to shift...

I would hate to report my longest stretch of editing, but it's in the 3 to 4 days range I'm sure.

Rediculous. I am way too old for all-nighters, yet somehow I still end up there towards the end of a job. But it's under-scheduling in the first place that provokes it, and then suckers like me who perpetuate it.

Enough!!!

Marla

Marla,
Right on girl, go for it. I really wish ALL HUMANS would do one night in the lab?to get a baseline on your how good you are doing, at the very least.

It is said that everyone has apnea to a certain extent, even healthy folk like you and you and you. For example, if you stop breathing for 5 or less times an hour for 10 seconds, that is considered "normal". Most people do that. Yikes!

I did not know that prior to looking into what good sleep is.

30 apneas an hour is considered "severe" and I was above that when I had my sleep test. Waaaaaay above that.

Now on my iCPAP, I've got it down to around 3-5 per hour. I'm looking to "tweak" my machine to getting down to less than 1 per hour.

Tweakin' yer sleep is kinda like tuning up your Mac. Get a nice machine, do some testing, change the settings and once you get it all dialed in, BINGO, it works waaaay better.



Here is my new "Cadillac", the Respironics BiPAP Auto M Series. Cost about the same as a nice MacBook and look, I didn't even have to pay an extra $150 for the black paint job. It basically does a sleep test on you every night and you can download your info and check it out. It's a pretty intelligent vaccuum cleaner for sure.

And my lovely mask. Kinda like the guy in Blue Velvet.



I'm pretty much already used to it and in fact already enjoy the benefits. Thanks very much for reading this thread everyone. I hope it raises awareness for ya'll. Creative Brains need a daily reboot, that's for sure.

And Jude. Isn't it sick that we think of a 14 hour day as "normal"? We are in a very unhealthy business, for sure. When a job is enjoyable, I guess there's always those drawbacks. Long hours away from the family and being sleep deprived are just those things. Oh wait! There's that sedentary thing too!

P.S. Hey Mark, I'd get a dog watcher once in awhile so you can sleep in once in a blue moon, eh?

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead, DV Products
Adobe
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe After Effects and Premiere Pro Community Blog
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High fashion lounge-wear Kevin!!!

So how much will it set me back to get tested? Does insurance cover such high-falutin self-care???

Snd do you recommend an at-home-visit or a lab test?

Danke,

Marla

Hey Kev! You go deep-sea diving in bed? That wetsuit looks like jammies, dude! J/K - you know I love you man. As a matter of fact, someone I know is using one of these to sleep. He says it's takes a while getting used to - sleeping with it while wearing it that is.

Peace

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Hey there dudes/dudettes,

What's this "Digi Production Buzz" thingy? Is it some sort of a podcast?

Do tell,

Marla

Its a pod cast Philip Hodgetts and I do each Thursday at 6PM PST

[www.digitalproductionbuzz.com]

Michael Horton
-------------------

Hey Mike,

How do you have time for things like sleep / bathroom / kids when you have so many things going on? Truly amazing & impressive!

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Mike is even funny on the show too.

I was on last week - sorry I missed you!

Sleep - what's that? I'm working all hours on this little project, what's it called, a primary colour or something. Anyway, back to work.

Graeme

[www.nattress.com] - Plugins for FCP-X

Philip produces the show. I just show up and drink wine and ask stupid questions. Easy gig.

Michael Horton
-------------------

Yeah missed you too Graeme. I would of spoken to your daughter. You are WAY to geeky for me listening to you pontificating about that red/black camcorder. She is my speed.



Michael Horton
-------------------

> Philip produces the show. I just show up and drink wine and ask stupid questions. Easy gig.

Congratulations, Mike! You are now officially...a producer! /;}


www.derekmok.com