Media Manager almost ready for primetime

It appears that with 5.1.2 our old friend Media Manager is almost ready for primetime. Gone are the issues with speed changes which had remained one of the biggest stumbling blocks. The inability to take a project from "offline" to "online" was/is one the the reasons for FCP not being accepted more widely with TV shows and films. It was even a problem in my line of shorter form promos and commercials. Well I think I may have uncovered one of the last remaining bugs in MM.

While my current day to day needs are not to go from an offline cut to an online cut I do need to consolidate my projects once they are done to archive and clear space on our SAN. I was very pleased to see the progress of MM but noticed one little problem. Even though I followed the wisdom of everyone out there including Larry Jordan and his tutorial on the MM including making my sequence clips independant, my media managed projects seemed to be just to large to be right. For instance a 2 minute DVCPro50 sequence when consolidated ended up with a 7GB of media after selecting 15 frame handles. That isn't right. I knew it should be closer to 1GB or less. After some posts over on the Apple site that didn't lead to any solution I started experiementing. I noticed there were some clips in the consolidated project that were never trimmed properly by the MM. For instance, a 3 minute clip which may have had 10 seconds total in the sequence sections but MM was taking the whole 3 minute clip.

Well, what I figured out is this. Clips that were captured with timecode didn't exhibit this behavior. It was only clips that were either imported off of DVD or captured using capture now that were problematic.

THE SOLUTION:
I modified the timecode on each of the problem clips by simply loading the clip in the viewer and modifying the timecode. Don't think it mattered but I made every clip start at 01:00:00:00. Once this was done to each clip that wasn't consolidating properly I then did a new consolidate using MM and volia! My 7GB media folder was now under 1GB and everything was in my sequence.

So I hope this helps anyone out there who might be experiencing the same issues. I assume this is a feature of MM that the FCP team will address in a future release. Can someone suggest how to make sure they are aware of this feature?

Thanks for your time. Happy Media Managing.

Philip Ohler
[philipohler.com]

hi, philip.

MM has a feature where is wont trim clips without a reel#

it assumes that the file did not originate from tape, and therefore may be the only copy in the universe.
it's doing the right thing by not trimming those files,
but maybe it should give you a warning, or some explanation.

i wonder if by altering the TC you also gave the clips a reel#?

FWIW you dot need to open the Modify TC window to change or add a reel#
you can do it in the reel column in the browser.


so MM handled your speed modified shots OK?
that;s good news.
did you have any variable speed shots in there?
i understand they were the hardest to wrangle in the past.


cheers,
nick

Nick,

You are correct. Reel numbers made the difference. I'm not sure why changing timecode worked also but adding reel numbers are much easier in the browser than timecode.

Yes speed changes so far have been handled perfectly.

Thanks for the tip.

Philip

There's a part of this I'm not getting.

Phillip was having trouble getting MM to jettison the portions of the media that weren't actually used in the project, right?

But since the media isn't coded and therefore not easily recapturable, he did want MM to keep/archive the actual used media, right?

So why would having apparently useful code and reel number cause MM to jettison the unused material? In other words, if it's keeping the material he wants online anyway, why would it care whether it's recapturable or not?

I ask because I have lots of media like this that MM shouldn't necessarily recognize as recapturable (though it is) because it was brought in via FireStore and has no reel numbers. Of course everything has incremental time code so I can easily provide it the correct tape if needed. Does FCP know how to deal with this?

Slightly off topic: I would really really love it if my media files could be simply named after their starting time code, and/or Media Manager and other parts of FCP (find) could search on time code.

A little more off: I would really also love it if good old user bits were supported and could play a part in identifying and finding lost bits.

Quote
Phil Ohler
I'm not sure why changing timecode worked

If you used the change timecode command from the menu it adds a reel number (defaults to 001) as soon as you add TC. So either way you are doing the same thing, but adding a reel in the browser is faster as you discovered.

Braker, if I understand your confusion correctly, Phil wanted to get the whole project down to just what was in the sequence for space reasons. Getting rid of the unused handles of the imported media does prevent him from relinking to the original full length files if there is a problem with the consolidated project but he should be keeping the original full file somewhere else as well as the version of the project from before consolidation, unlinked to any online media.


Re: your FireStore question, could anyone else not familiar with the project bring in the footage again, or is it info that is stored only in your head? I believe FCP will not get rid of unused media if there is no Reel name entered so it would probably not consolidate any of your FireStore media.


I hear you on the naming issue. I think FCP could use a powerful file and clip naming convention utility that would allow for all the different kinds of need users have for all the different signal paths projects can take after the first cut. Basically what we need is a supercharged version of the naming agglomerator in the capture tool. In the XDCAM HD import tool there is an option to include the Start TC in the clip name.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

Like Philip I found that adding timecode lets media manager work correctly. In my case I do a lot of live capture of sporting events in progress. I am thrilled to find that just adding a reel number works as well.

Now here is my "wish" list. In a future release of FCP could we have the live capture feature make a reel called "live" or something user definable? And could timecode be time of day from the computer clock?

Another question. If you do a live capture of a source with timecode, why won't final cut just accept the code presented on the firewire or 9 pin connection?

-Vance

Interesting stuff.

Can FCP just add timecode to things that are either captured directly, or sources that are ripped and don't have TC?

I think this would be a very useful feature, especially since i have a load of archived material on DVD that I'm about to rip from disk and use in a project.

So if FCP doesn't do this, I'd like to request that it be an option somewhere. Maybe a "Generate Timecode" command?

thx,

HarryD

> Can FCP just add timecode to things that are either captured directly, or sources that are
> ripped and don't have TC?

You can add timecode (Modify - Timecode), but it doesn't really do too much good since the purpose of timecode is to locate media from a tape correctly. Adding timecode to a clip extracted from a DVD, or a clip captured with Non-Controllable Device won't have any effect; the timecode doesn't have a reference point on the disc. Such clips do have a "dummy" timecode starting at 00:00:00:00.

There's only one reason I can think of to add timecode to a clip: If you're syncing non-timecoded media to media with real useable timecode; for example, I added timecode to an AIFF extracted from CD so it would match timecode on a clip captured from Betacam SP to facilitate sync work. In the above situation, as Andrew points out, non-timecoded media wouldn't be recapturable by Media Manager anyway and you shouldn't be trimming those.

> I think this would be a very useful feature, especially since i have a load of archived material
> on DVD that I'm about to rip from disk and use in a project.

You still have to back up the actual files created when you first extracted the clips. Adding timecode to them won't help you batch capture them.


www.derekmok.com

As you wish Mister bdplaid.
Highlight an imported clip in a bin or in your sequence. Go to Modify>timecode. Put a check in the Source TC box and enter a Reel name and a time code. ENTER
Your options are to have the number you type become the TC where your playhead is parked or the first TC of the clip. This is very useful for faking TC sync of imported clips.
Ta da!

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

Well I would trim them if I was after what Phil was after. A version of the media that only included what was in the sequence with a few frame handles. Only made after the project is locked stored in case shots might have to be replaced or graphic updated. It would be a stand alone Project and set of media files, that for Phil, meed to take up a minimum of space on a SAN.

You keep a copy of the original project with all the full length clips and sequences. You back up the imported files offline.

That's why I would go through and add TC to all the imported files. Like anything else it requires that you know where you are going and how you are going to get there with all your media and sanity intact.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

Andrew Kines Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Getting rid of the unused handles of the imported
> media does prevent him from relinking to the
> original full length files if there is a problem
> with the consolidated project but he should be
> keeping the original full file somewhere else as
> well as the version of the project from before
> consolidation, unlinked to any online media.

So the problem wasn't that it wanted to get rid of the media itself. It seems the problem was that it wanted very large handles, or that there were a lot of them.

> Re: your FireStore question, could anyone else not
> familiar with the project bring in the footage
> again, or is it info that is stored only in your
> head? I believe FCP will not get rid of unused
> media if there is no Reel name entered so it would
> probably not consolidate any of your FireStore
> media.

I have done MM on FireStore material and it did consolidate everything as requested. But I haven't asked it to delete the used media. As far as recapture goes, it should be easy to do since all 16 hours are sequential time code. So Tape F for example may happen to start at 14:23:06:12, and that code doesn't exist anywhere else in the project. But if I didn't do sequential code it would probably be a mess.

> I hear you on the naming issue...

Don't get me started on the friendly auto-naming of subclips: "Segment 34 of 'supercalifragillisticexpaladocious' Subclip"...

This reminds me of an alternate method especially for Phillip's case (hey, where'd he go anyway?). This will seem like another neanderthal idea. One could take all those bits of non-coded media, and put them on tape, one way or another, with code. Then import that and use it. The tape then becomes part of the archive.

> One could take all those bits of non-coded media, and put them on tape, one way or another,
> with code. Then import that and use it.

In the long run, yeah, that would be the foolproof way to do it. The problem with that is that it takes four to five times the amount of your media to do it. You have to first extract the media (whatever it is), then you have to put it onto a timeline and set up a tape output with new timecode. Then you have to relog and recapture the media from the timecoded tape. If you have a substantial amount of this non-timecoded media, it'll probably be too slow.

> A version of the media that only included what was in the sequence with a few frame
> handles. Only made after the project is locked stored in case shots might have to be replaced
> or graphic updated. It would be a stand alone Project and set of media files...You keep a copy
> of the original project with all the full length clips and sequences. You back up the imported
> files offline.

I agree with that, with just one concern. Having to keep a complete set of original media kind of defeats the purpose of trimming using Media Manager, doesn't it? You'd now have to keep two versions of the media, including the non-trimmed media. So you'll need even more storage than the original edit. If keeping down storage expenditure is the goal, my instinct would be to take a little time, keep the original non-timecoded media in its original form, and to trim only timecoded clips. Then archive the original non-timecoded media only, without attempting to trim it.


www.derekmok.com

I swear, every time I think I've come up with a feature request, someone points out to me that FCP already does it. :-)

thanks!

HarryD

to be clear about this, and as Derek points out, ALL clips have TC.

it's the REEL # that determines whether a clip gets trimmed or not.

as far as that goes, i think FCP is doing the RIGHT THING not trimming non-tape based media,
but it should give you a warning, or explain itself.
i've seen too many people loose too much time over this
maybe it could offer you the option in a dialogue box to trim the non-tape based media,
but Apple generally likes to make those sort of critical decisions as hard to make as possible, with good reason,
so i;d be happy with a warning.

also, if the file gets trimmed, and you have an original full length version backed up,
then that CAN be successfully re-linked to, due to the TC.
(i think someone suggested this might not work, but i see no reason why it shouldn't)


with the DVD issue, you sort of DO have the original media, so if you somehow lost your rip, you could always rip it again.
it might be hard to guarantee the rip starts at exactly the same lace, so adding some TC (or more correrctly MODIFYING the defult zero TC) at a specific point might be a good idea.
for instance you'd find the first hard cut and give that a 1Hr TC
you;d also want to keep some sort of note about what you did so you could repeat it.

with the rips i've done for use in projects, they've been tiny grabs, so the trimming thing isn't much of an issue.
but i make sure the ripped media gets backed up to DVD RAM.
that would be the source if the project gets revisited.

Avid has a pretty good function called archive to tape (so i;ve been told).
that'll record back to tape the used sections of your show with handles, and be able to pull it all back in correctly.
great for large archival projects.

finally, (and this is getting slightly OT, as it;s not MM related)
there is another reason to add a REEL # to either audio files or non-tape based media.
if you are merging video & audio, they often wont cut into the timeline correctly if one or both don't have a reel#
they can cut into the timeline with an offset. like the picture is where you cut it in, but the audio cuts in 15 minutes later.


cheers,
nick

Quote
Nick Meyers
ALL clips have TC.

I know I am quibbling here because I know what you are getting at. However if you open any imported clip in the timecode modify window there will be no TC there under Source or the two Aux choices. FCP does assign a zero start TC to imported clips but doesn't consider it a source TC like a captured or XDCAMHD/P2 imported clip.
It's for this reason why I want to hunt and kill any camera op who shoots starting with 00:00:00:00. At least let me believe you thought about something before you turned on the camera.


The AVID archive function is OK if you are archiving to a low-loss format. D-Beta was the only one worth doing it with when I did this way back when. Tended to give clients a false sense of what coud be done when restoring the archive though. Not EVERYTHING was somehow magically on that tape! You could make an archive sequence of just your imported elements and AVID would take care of tracking the new timecodes to the new archive tape. Pretty cool, that trick is.

All these archiving choices do force you to think about why you are archiving the way you are. Will I need to be able to make shot changes or just title changes? If it's just title updates then a naked master or codec native quicktime export without titles might be better and less hassle. A lot of time people expend great amounts of energy to keep their options open down the road and when you look at whether or not anyone ever went back to the archive all they did was use the finished piece as is and all the effort to keep it flexible was never utilised. The other side of the coin is a nasty place to be as well. Room full of tapes, no/bad labels, no order, nothing tracked, fine job for an eager student.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

> A lot of time people expend great amounts of energy to keep their options open down the
> road and when you look at whether or not anyone ever went back to the archive all they did
> was use the finished piece as is and all the effort to keep it flexible was never utilised.

How true.

The main thing is to have a system -- any system. One that's maintained regularly. And the courage and knowledge to update archives when it's time. If it's been four years since a film has been finished (as in the case with the film my director partner and I did, his thesis film), is it really such a problem to dump the clips and keep only movie files? Especially since we have project-file backups (which are pretty small), master tapes all timecoded and properly labelled, and tape copies of the finished film? My director and I just dumped half of those clips from a six-year-old Promax FireWire 400 drive (!), and fully half of the archived project files are for Final Cut Pro 2! But even four years later, I still know which file does what. Their locations are consistent with my current file-management system.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Good archiving begins at the beginning of the project, when you weren't even archiving. If the initial setup was good, archiving will be a breeze.

With commercial, paid projects, I turn the archives over to the clients. If their preservation of their own materials, drives, backup DVDs etc. isn't up to speed and I can't recreate their project completely six months down the line, not my problem. I work around it as best I can.


www.derekmok.com

nice summary Nick.

Good info here. Nick, you reminded me of my Avid days - and a couple of questions:

1. One one Avid project, somehow i ended up with media that had both drop and non-drop TC. It was a mother trying to get that to work. and actually I'm not sure if i ever did; i recall going through the cut list and changing all colons ( to semi-colons ( to try and fool the avid. i recall it not working.

So the question is: if a project ever arrives with media that's both drop and non-drop, is there a way to convert one of them in FCP?

2. My Avid system had an automated backup program; i think it was called Mozart, or something like that. It accessed a Quantum DLT drive. After setting it up for any given project, when I inserted the appropreoaite DLT tape the system would do an automatic backup (or sync, or revision, as appropriate).

Other than using MM manually, does anything like that exist for FCP?

thanks mucho,

HarryD

Wow, what AVID version where you on that had a problem with mixing DF/NDF? The only problem I've ever had was dealing with poorly logged tapes that had the wrong TC association which is fixed quickly with a reel name modification.
In AVID and FCP and hopefully everything else, you shouldn't have to worry if you have DF and NDF sources. All the edit systems should be able to play both types in the same sequence. You don't convert it and you shouldn't convert it especially if you are offlining.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

It was Avid Xpress 2.something, but the media composers of the day (1997-1999-ish) also had this issue. Damn, I hated those systems.

I've been so careful in production ever since that it didn't occur to me that modern NLEs would overcome this on a basic level.

thanks for the update.

HarryD

I started on Media Composer v5.0 and we never had a problem mixing DF and NDF that I can remember. Admitedly it was a while back, but I do remember that v7.2 on a 9600 was a sweet spot in AVID history.

DF and NDF on the same tape? You had to tell the AVID it was two different tapes but that was rare. I haven't worried about the DF/NDF issue for so long. It wasn't until I started cutting in 24fps timecode rates that the lack of a DF or clock accurate TC made sequence durations a PITA in 23.976.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

actually, i seem to recall MC 7 was out then, and I seem to recall a session where the house editor where onlines were done couldn't load a cut list because of NDF/DF issues.

in my situation, it was DF on some tapes, NDF on others. there were about 12 beta sp tapes shot on different days and about 3-4 of them had NDF. for some reason, my boss hired a shooter rather than my doing it, and the shooter screwed things up royally. FWIW, he also decided to clean the heads on the beta sp deck with alcohol on his finger, and bent the tape guide, which in turn caused footage on the end of long 90 min tapes to not track properly. it was the project from hell, i swear, culminating in my having to threaten the client with removal from my office by security.

but i digress...

HarryD

Harry,

Sorry for the bad "flashback". However, using a mixture of DF/NDF as sources has not or ever was a problem for either Avid or FCP. My first Avid was version 4.2 on a Mac Quadra 950. Even that old dinosaur could handle mixed flavors of timecode. Whatever code issues you experienced (and it could have been many things) were not simply a function of mixing code formats.

EDLs are finicky. There's plenty of things that would screw up an EDL loading to an Avid. As I recall from those days, you often had to "massage" the list using a text edit program to delete spurious data that caused the Avid to barf.

This is a little off topic, but it seems like more confusion is caused by the description "Drop Frame Time Code" than just about any other aspect of NLE workflow. If you ever want to guage a potential employee's grasp of technical knowledge, just ask them to "tell me the difference between Drop frame and non drop frame timecode". You'll know in ten seconds whether they have a sound technical understanding of the editing workflow.

Mark

Hi, Mark,

Well, now the guantlet has been thrown down! :-)

I swear, I recall getting error messages in the Avid capture window (I can still see it in my mind's eye) when I was trying to digitize the NDF tapes (it balked and wouldn't cap at all). And I do also recall using a text editor to try to fool the Avid with those tapes (on another occasion I had to do that with an AMPEX ACE linear system, too). That was a treat - textedit worked better than my Avid. Ah, good times, good times...

Memories are funny and inaccurate things, and it's possible that I recall this not quite right (it was 9 years ago, after all), But I do recall that this system would not allow me to even digitize the NDF tape into that particular project, because the project, on creation, had been defined as having DF timecode. One had to do that in those days. maybe there was a workaround or something else that should have been done.

Feel free to correct me, but i swear this is my recollection.

thanks!

HarryD

just ask them to "tell me the difference between Drop frame and non drop frame timecode"

holy crap, Mark ... don't pull that on someone who's only ever worked in PAL i like to think i have a sound technical understanding of the editing workflow, but the only thing i really truly know about drop frame timecode is that its absoultely not my problem. lol.

I'm back with some new information on consolidating a project via MM.

This just in....

Another stumbling block to proper trimming of source material seems to be frame rate. Often times when we Snapz material off the computer screen or download videos from Youtube the frame rates vary from 10fps to 24fps. FCP and MM won't trim this material unless it's in the native frame rate of your timeline. I've done the tests. I thought it also may have had to do with codec and frame size but thankfully that doesn't matter.

For my test I put to versions of the same clip in a timeline. Clip 1A was the native Snapz capture (Animation codec, 977x670, 10fps). Clip 1B was the same clip but converted to 29.97fps. I cut both of these clips into a sequence and then went to MM to consolidate my timeline. When the MM consolidate begins I get an error message stating Clip 1A can't be copied with an error code 47. I guess I could look up to see what that code was but I'm guessing it's got something to do with incompatible frame rate.

So the lessons learned so far for succesful MM consolidation? Make sure all your media has a reel number and a frame rate that's the same as your sequence.

Philip Ohler

"Media Manager almost ready for primetime" Heavy on the "almost."

NAB 2007 can't come soon enough, although it doesn't guarantee anything I suppose. I'm dreaming of a "ground up." But then again I dream too big.