shooting HD 1080 24p/but interlacing (60i) coming back in with the DVCPro HD codec?

Questions for my Lovely HD/FCP Pen-Pals:

Does the DVCPro HD Codec automatically force footage back to 60i?

We shot 1080 24psf on some high end Sony varicam style Studio cameras (connected to recorders via fiber cable). It was a 4 day conference (TED) that had all day speakers - 5 cameras...

Using a Kona card they did some on-site editing, experimented with a few differenct codecs, and I heard that the DVCPro HD codec was "forcing" the footage into 60i somehow. Is this true? Does it then do some sort of a pulldown thing?

I have thus far not seen the new footage, but my colleague and I will be getting it and beginning to deal with it all next week. We have so much of it, and we are in the process of deciding whether to buy or to rent a deck, and/or a raid, and which codec we choose will be a large determining factor. We definitely want to make the most of progressive and to stay away from interlacing at all costs...

Any information appreciated,

Thanks,

Marla
mitchnickpictures@yahoo.com
marla@ted.com

Marla,

Ballsy move, shooting a 5-camera, 4-day gig and switching up codecs without rhyme nor reason. In Hollywood, this is called "editor payback time".

To my knowledge, DVCPro HD will record in interlaced or progressive, in a variety of framerates. If it was recorded progressive, you'll have no troubles. If it was recorded interlaced, you can pulldown frames.

I'm confused as to why you would/would not rent a deck. If the footage was recorded in a format you have, no need to rent a deck. If it's on a disk, no need to rent a deck. If it's on a format you don't have.... guess you'll have to rent a deck. Perhaps I'm reading this part wrong, or it needs some clarification?

With four days of five cameras, I'd suggest either buying or renting a TON of disk space... With the price of HDs these days, I'd buy!

Finally, you'll want to edit each codec natively... and then convert to something (or not, I suppose) in the end. But editing in one codec (and rendering everything to match) will be a long and painful process.

-MW

First off...Mike, it is very common when you shoot high end HD to cut in a lower resolution codec to conserve space. DVCPRO HD is regarded by many as the perfect codec to use as an offline codec. So the fact that she did this was a perfectly viable option. ZODIAK was shot 1080p with HDCAM SR cameras, and offlined DVCPRO HD.

Now...question Marla. You said:

> We shot 1080 24psf on some high end Sony varicam
> style Studio cameras (connected to recorders via
> fiber cable).

What is a Sony "varicam style" studio camera? Because Varicam is a Panasonic camera. What model was the Sony camera? F900? F950? HDCAM, right?

> Does the DVCPro HD Codec automatically force
> footage back to 60i?

Not if captured properly. DVCPRO HD does have a 1080pA24 setting. If you captured to that setting, you'd have 1080p at 23.98.

> Using a Kona card they did some on-site editing,
> experimented with a few differenct codecs, and I
> heard that the DVCPro HD codec was "forcing" the
> footage into 60i somehow. Is this true? Does it
> then do some sort of a pulldown thing?

How was it captured? What exact settings? If 1080i60, then yes, you captured as a 60i format. And which Kona Card? They both have options for 1080psf24 DVCPRO HD.

> I have thus far not seen the new footage, but my
> colleague and I will be getting it and beginning
> to deal with it all next week. We have so much of
> it, and we are in the process of deciding whether
> to buy or to rent a deck, and/or a raid, and which
> codec we choose will be a large determining
> factor. We definitely want to make the most of
> progressive and to stay away from interlacing at
> all costs...
>
If you shot HDCAM, then your best bet would be to rent a deck (if the initial capture was done improperly) and capture as DVCPRO HD to offline, then when you have locked the cut, recapture at 10-bit uncompressed HD. For DVCPRO HD, you don't need a raid as firewire 800 drives will do, but why not get one as they are highly recommended, and really don't cost that much more than a good solid firewire drive. You'd get better performance, more RT effects, more streams of video to work with without rendering. CalDigit offers great drives. As does Sonnet Tech and MacGurus.

When the time comes to online, you'll need a SERIOUS Raid, however. A SATA Raid will still do, but you'll need a 5 drive RAID 0 setup.


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>What is a Sony "varicam style" studio camera? Because Varicam is a Panasonic camera. What model was the Sony camera? F900? F950? HDCAM, right?

I do know that the varicam is Panasonic - I have been trying to get the model of the Sony camera for WEEKS. there were 8 cameras donated by Sony, and I don't think they knew what we were getting much in advance. I only said that bc I asked my boss this morning, he just got back from the conference, and that's what he said. I thought that Sony had perhaps made some sort of a copy-cat camera... He has not slept in weeks, so I'm sure he just meant that it had various frame rates to choose from or something like that.

In addition I was not at the shoot, and though I begged for 720/24p the decision became 1080/24p...


>Not if captured properly. DVCPRO HD does have a 1080pA24 setting. If you captured to that setting, you'd have 1080p at 23.98.

Does the "A" stand for Advanced??

Our choices are to rent or to purchase a deck, we will be doing this sort of shooting ongoing, but not again for a while. We may end up just renting for now, and I know we were planning on an XSAN...

In any case I am happy to hear that the 60i thing is not necessarily a problem, once I get my hands on the footage and a deck we'll run some new tests. maybe it was a setting in the deck menu when they were capturing, or else in the codec choice... I am hoping the initial capture is good...

Sorry that I am querying without being fully informed myself, just trying to prepare and a bit concerned...

Thanks,

Marla

Yeah, tough to know what to do without knowing exactly what is involved. Once you get all the information, if you still need help, let us know.


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Hi,

I am new to this group and am interested to know your further thoughts on why DVCPRO HD is considered the perfect codec to offline edit. We have been offlining SD at DV Res and then re-batch capture at 10bit SDI for our online post. Our series (13x26) has just been renewed and will be our first HD deliverable. I figured we would record DVCPRO HD 1080i and while storing the original media files on SATAII drives downconvert in Media Manger to DV Res for offlining. Any suggestions, thoughts, etc on this workflow are welcomed.

Thanks in advance

rickatshoot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am new to this group and am interested to know
> your further thoughts on why DVCPRO HD is
> considered the perfect codec to offline edit.

Because of its relatively small file size (720p24 is basically twice the size of DV) yet still crystal clear HD that has quite a few RT effects. DVCPRO HD was the first native HD format FCP supported, and is the easiest to deal with...low render times and lots of RT effects.

> We have been offlining SD at DV Res and then re-batch
> capture at 10bit SDI for our online post. Our
> series (13x26) has just been renewed and will be
> our first HD deliverable. I figured we would
> record DVCPRO HD 1080i and while storing the
> original media files on SATAII drives downconvert
> in Media Manger to DV Res for offlining. Any
> suggestions, thoughts, etc on this workflow are
> welcomed.

Don't go 1080i for offline, go 720p. Smaller file sizes yet still the same aspect ratio. And you can choose 720p24, 720p30 or 720p60, depending on what format your masters are. This way you can use SATA RAIDS like the CalDigit S2VR DUO and get 3 streams of RT. 1080i will get you one, unless you go with a 5 drive raid.


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Hi

I had no intention of offling in 1080i. I was intending to offline in dvres (which in my mind is smaller than 720p). Is there a specific reason you are suggesting 720p? To me it seems unnecessarily large for offline purposes unless there are advantages/limitations I am unaware of.

My other related issue is in tapeless acquisition (as opposed to tape acquisition) can you downconvert and upconvert the codec(s) of the original source material in Media Manager as much as you want OR should your original source media (ie those from the P2 card) be stored at its original capture resolution and lower resolution copies made using media manager for offline edit (like in tape acquisition ) ?

Thanks

What exact HD format have you been shooting with so far? We just shot some short docs at 720/24p on P2 cards and had a good experience, but we cut in DVCProHD...

Marla

No HD yet first HD scheduled May 2007. Just putting together the workflow.

Camera HVX-200 Firestore 100 (3)
Daily Storage SATAII 500g Hitachi Burly Sata/FW 2Bay enclosure Raid 1
Editing MacBookPro 2.16G, G5 Dual 2.3 / G4 Dual 1.8 / G4 Dual 1.25 (mainly Protools and Mix suite) FCPSt 5.1.4 / Creative Suite 2 / Protools 7.0 / Digi 002 / (1)Burly Box 8Bay 4Tera / (3) Burly Box 2Bay 1Tera each / (2)Burly Box 5Bay Port Multiplier 2.5 Tera each / 2 Sony 20" PVMs Component / AJA IO & Kona 2 HD/SD

Total 28 x 500g Hitachi SATA2 Drives Hot swap

Open for any and all suggestions

What I am thinking is to keep master source file copies in vault at capture resolution is 1080i the way to go?

Create a lower res set of media for offline. We currently offline in DV NTSC and are quite happy. Can I downconvert my source files to DV NTSC 16/9 for offline and when picture locked upconvert the same files to 1080i OR do I have to go back to the master files in the vault?

Thanks

I guess I don't understand why you'd want to offline DV, as opposed to DVCProHD. Do you have gazillions of hours of footage or something? It's an excellent codec and would be so much closer to your original, just seems like a wiser option to me, if you have the space. And I am NO EXPERT, but I can't imagine that you'd want to upconvert from DV to HD: yuck! Whereas, if you were using the DVCProHD codec (720 or 1080, depending), you might be able to avoid upconverting altogether, just make sure do some tests at the outset with your entire workflow in mind, including final format, and to make sure you're happy with the colorspace in the end...

And why go i instead of p? Is it because of your broadcast specs? Sorry for my HD partial-experience, I am very gung ho about progressive, but I am not doing HD for television...


Marla

I think i am miusing terms. Why DV NTSC for offline? My editors like to use Sony PVMs to view their edited materials but i just found out that i can use the Kona2 card to edit in DVCPRO HD and send a downcoverted component feed to my SD monitors. I am cominf to the realization that compartively low data rate of DVCPRO HD will allow me to stay in the same codec we shot in. All round good news and a good day. This is a great forum thanks for all the good advice and polite responses to my somewhat naive questions.

Cheers from Canada

I am glad that Marla set you straight, because offlining in DV makes no sense. Offlining in general doesn't make sense when working with DVCPRO HD. Especially with P2 footage. WHy? well, you have to import it all first...meaning that you already have it at full res sitting on a drive somewhere. WHy downconvert that and take up even MORE space? And upconverting the DV to HD...oh my NO! That wouldn't be what you'd have to do. You'd have to try to reconnect to all the original imported media.

No...it isn't worth the headache to try to offline this. The money it costs to get drives will more than make up for the time you'd waste trying to figure it out.


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I understand. So if i captured and editied in 720p DVCPRO HD how much Gig would be required to hold an hour of material?

Also is the broadcast deliverable to HDCAM uncompressed? Or is DVCPRO HD a broadcast quality resolution?

I will of course ask my broadcaster but if you can provide a heads up that would be great.

rickatshoot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I understand. So if i captured and editied in
> 720p DVCPRO HD how much Gig would be required to
> hold an hour of material?
>
At what frame rate?

23.98 - 21.41GB/hour
59.94 - 52.48GB/hour

> Also is the broadcast deliverable to HDCAM
> uncompressed? Or is DVCPRO HD a broadcast quality
> resolution?

Depends how you do it. I just output my DVCPRO HD timeline via a Kona 3 that upconverted to HDCAM 1080p 23.98. You can opt to drop it into an 8-bit uncompressed timeline and render, then color correct and output, and you will get marginal gains in quality (rendering in an uncompressed color space opposed to a DVCPRO HD color space).

> I will of course ask my broadcaster but if you can
> provide a heads up that would be great.

WHo is your broadcaster?


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My broadcaster is French-language CBC or Radio-Canada.

The DVCPRO HD upconverted to HDCAM 1080p 23.98 sounds good.

Does the Kona 2 card do this?
Does the camera make any difference for this one and only deliverable the camera is a HVX-200.

As far as frame rate am I right in assuming 59.94p is more than twice the quality (and therefore quantity) of 23.98p? This deliverable is broadcast so I am not sure why a 23.98 (which reminds me of the 24p rate of film) would be appropriate is there a value added to 23.98? If the value is the lighter files, an offline / online workflow in the same codec plus a nice quality broadcast deliverable with good saturation and colour integrity that will hold together over the variety of transmission compression as well as cable and satellite well thats pretty good. We have been getting good results with the smaller DV cameras when direct to cable but their 4.1.1 compression doesnt hold up for standard broadcast and satellite feeds. For these we were using DVCPRO50.

Thanks again

rickatshoot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The DVCPRO HD upconverted to HDCAM 1080p 23.98
> sounds good.
>
> Does the Kona 2 card do this?

No. With the Kona 2 you have to upconvert by dropping the footage into an 8-bit uncompressed sequence and rendering, then outputting.

> Does the camera make any difference for this one
> and only deliverable the camera is a HVX-200.

Nope...I mix Varicam footage and HVX footage for all my shows.

> As far as frame rate am I right in assuming 59.94p
> is more than twice the quality (and therefore
> quantity) of 23.98p?

Not twice the quality...just more frames. 60 frames as opposed to 24 frames. So it takes up more than twice the drive space.

>This deliverable is
> broadcast so I am not sure why a 23.98 (which
> reminds me of the 24p rate of film) would be
> appropriate is there a value added to 23.98?

Yes. A 1080p 23.98 master can be converted to ANY format.

> If the value is the lighter files, an offline /
> online workflow in the same codec plus a nice
> quality broadcast deliverable with good saturation
> and colour integrity that will hold together over
> the variety of transmission compression as well as
> cable and satellite well thats pretty good.

There is no offline/online workflow here. Online all the way. Capture at full res, output at full res.


> We have been getting good results with the smaller DV
> cameras when direct to cable but their 4.1.1
> compression doesnt hold up for standard broadcast
> and satellite feeds. For these we were using
> DVCPRO50.

Yes...DV50 is a far superior format. Competes with digibeta in terms of quality.


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Any noticeable difference when watching your intercut varicam & HVX200 footage when broadcast on television?

If I am shooting on the HVX 200 it seems that I have 2 chief considerations to look for in tests progressive versus interlaced and 1080 versus 720. Intuitively I am drawn towards progressive and 1080. Is progressive 'better' or just more like film hence a shutter-type feel to the full frame images versus the video-crisp smoothness of interlaced fields. If I choose progressive then I still have to decide on a 720 (which I believe would be the resolution of the individual frames as in 720 lines (or is it pixels?) the camera shoots 720p native and I believe (but do not fully understand) 1080p with a pull-down? Is the pull down some sort of artificially created method of increasing the the resolution and am I right in assuming that the 720 1080 refer to the way the image is captured?

Thanks for all the great answers.

FYI

My delivery specs are


Delivery Media (Tapes)

CBC/Radio-Canada requires that the HD material be provided on Sony Hdcam SRTM
videotape.

Delivery of any program on a medium other than Hdcam SRTM shall have to be approved
beforehand by CBC/Radio-Canada, shall be submitted two weeks before the planned
delivery date, and shall be transferred to Hdcam SRTM format by CBC/Radio-Canada at the
producer?s expense.


Video


Image Format

The image format shall be 1920 x 1080 pixels and compliant with the SMPTE 274-1998
standard.

The sampling structure shall be 4:2:2 with 10-bit quantizing. These image specifications
should be preserved as much as possible throughout the complete production process.


Frame Rate

The video frame rate shall be 29.97 frames per second, 2:1 interlaced. The exact value of
this frame rate is given by 30 / 1.001.

This format is defined at line 5 of Table 1 in the SMPTE 274-1998 standard, and is
commonly designated as 59i.

Any show or program originally shot at another frame rate, such as 24p or 23.98p, shall be
converted to 29.97 fps before being delivered to CBC/Radio-Canada.

Technical Specifications for High Definition Program Acceptance
Version 2.3



2:3 Pulldown

The 2:3 pulldown (sometimes referred to as 3:2 pulldown), used to convert 4 film frames into
5 video frames, shall be as described in SMPTE recommendation RP 197-2003.

If 4 film frames are represented as A, B, C, D, the pulldown sequence of the video fields
generated from them shall be:

A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 D1 D2 D3
A B C D23.98p Film content
2:3 Pulldown sequence
for a transfer to
29.97i video format Field 1 Field 2
Film Frames
Video Field/Frames
f1 f2 f1 f2 f1 f2 f1 f2

This 2:3 sequence shall be respected not only for transfers on telecines but also for frame
rate conversions performed with any other system (standard converters, non-linear editing
systems, etc.). It will ensure a fluid perception of movements.

rickatshoot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any noticeable difference when watching your
> intercut varicam & HVX200 footage when broadcast
> on television?

I can tell. The lens on the Varicam is far sharper. The HVX lens tends to blur the footage more. Which is just FINE by the actors. The varicam lens shows every facial pore. But I tend to soften the varicam footage a bit.
>
> If I am shooting on the HVX 200 it seems that I
> have 2 chief considerations to look for in tests
> progressive versus interlaced and 1080 versus 720.
> Intuitively I am drawn towards progressive and
> 1080. Is progressive 'better' or just more like
> film hence a shutter-type feel to the full frame
> images versus the video-crisp smoothness of
> interlaced fields. If I choose progressive then I
> still have to decide on a 720 (which I believe
> would be the resolution of the individual frames
> as in 720 lines (or is it pixels?) the camera
> shoots 720p native and I believe (but do not fully
> understand) 1080p with a pull-down? Is the pull
> down some sort of artificially created method of
> increasing the the resolution and am I right in
> assuming that the 720 1080 refer to the way the
> image is captured?

That camera can shoot 720p with variable frame rates, meaning that it can shoot 60p and 48p for smooth slow motion. It can also shoot 720p 24PN. That option isn't available at 1080p. You can only get 1080p24 with pulldown...so it will need to be removed upon injest. Pulldown does NOT increase resolution, it removes redundant frames from video to end up with 23.98 video.

720 and 1080 refer to image size. 1280x720 vs 1920x1080. 1080 is obviously larger. Captured, presented...the whole shibang.


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