There are some procedures of using FCP that simply must be shared in a forum like this ... because they don't fall in the category of trade-secrets or "google it" or "read the manual".

I'll give you an example so you don't think I'm being presumptuous:

I was in the habit of doing "Capture Now" of entire camera runs, sometimes ten to twenty minutes long.

I would then begin editing by dragging clips into the editor and placing ins and outs and then dragging to the timeline.

After a hundred such clips, I would finish the edit and now I would export to STP for mixing.

If I did a right click on any clip in the STP multi-track timeline and then selected "Open in Editor", I would see the WHOLE twenty minute or one hour track of the clip that may be 10 seconds long!

Now, after fixing the problem of the 10 second clip, I would go back to my multi-track timeline and continue this process of fixing and balancing all the 100 clips in the movie, let's say.

Now it comes time to do a save. Ahhhhh, let me see -- you might not believe what happens -- STP begins to save 100 clips of music of 10 min to 1 hour lengths -- so it literally ends up wanting to take a year to render it all, or it simply crashes.

So everything worked fine in FCP but you can't mix in STP if you don't have the clips Media Managed in FCP before you export.

And Media Managing the clips just for mixing in STP isn't necessarily advisable, because Media Managing poses other problems should you have many versions of the project. If you Media Manage, all your project clips will be changed and your trailers, features, movie clips -- everything will be messed up. (I'm sure there is another misuse issue here.)

So there's no way anybody can work with clips that haven't been broken down into subclips.

You will say now, "aha, we told you to log your clips." But it isn't as simple as that either, because "Capture Now" is very often useful.

So, this problem of using clips from the browser by simply placing ins and outs doesn't work right IN THE MAJORITY OF CASES, because it will lead to problems when trying to finish a project.

Now, maybe I'm wrong about all this, but I'm sure there are monster problems and outright misuse of FCP procedures that we should share as A FORUM.

I hope you don't think I'm being presumptuous. Sorry for using this word twice, it's just that I'm surprised I managed to spell it right twice :-)

Vik

This is shared constantly and yes it can be googled and searched o this forum. Not a week goes by without this being "shared."

Michael Horton
-------------------

i dont think you're being presumptuous, i just think you're making a formal issue out of something that just comes from poor logic or a sketchy fundamental workflow...

IMO, the process of full tape (or even long clip) "capture now" is totally ludicrous from the get go.

Thank you, Mike. I know you encourage this.

From the start I found out that you promote the sharing of essential facts about FCP.

This is why LAFCPUG was recommended to me by the Apple Instructors. It's a great forum. You've done a great job and you continue to do a great job.

I simply don't go anywhere else for answers.

However, I've been known to ask questions that can be easily researched on Google or in the manual, and that's because I have poor eyesight and can't do extensive reading on a monitor or even the small print of manuals.

But there are some questions that I think need to be answered without referring the poster to the manual.

Making sub-clips from "Capture Now" files, especially the longer ones, and breaking up clips in log and capture to single shots is essential for FCP to work properly.

This should be stressed. I think it's a mistake to say, "whatever works for you" in certain instances.

As a filmmaker, shooting 35mm film, it's an essential skill to know when to say cut. It's not just because film is expensive and it's not just because editors' time is important -- it makes for better filmmaking when a director knows a certain scene has been done right and he/she says, "cut, print."

It's valuable to carry that tradition to digital movie-making. When editing a sequence in FCP, it's important to break up the scenes into manageable clips (with handles, to be sure).

It's a wrong procedure to simply put in and out marks in a long clip and keep dragging it down to the timeline repeatedly (with different in and out marks), because the end result is five hundred clips (in case of a feature film) made up of twenty minute clips used 500 ways.

This is a monster of a misuse of FCP, and I think this kind of misuse of FCP should be shared between editors.

I'm sure there are many such examples that editors can share. They may be obvious after someone has worked with NLE for decades but for us editors coming from the film side, it's of great help to get this kind of advice.

I hope experienced editors will be forthcoming in pointing out bad procedures that they've run across.

I hope it's understood that I'm asking for help in a respectful fashion.

Advice can only be offered so many times. If you choose not to take that advice and do something that has been warned against, then you ultimately pay the price.
It's like telling the kid over and over not to play with fire. Sometime it takes them getting burned before they realize it's a mistake.

Also, Log & Capture takes twice as long. I hope Apple hears us on the problem of not working with just the timeline I/O. Why does FCP by default make us work with the entire clip? There should be an option to "select timeline duration" or something. Much finger wagging from you forum guys here. "Poor logic" and "Totally ludicrous" don't help. I think Filmman's observation is helpful and should be forwarded to Apple. Power to the cult of Capture Now!

takes twice as long why? because you have to pay attention and plan? oh my - thats horrible! how could apple do that to us!!!

as respectfully as possible, i just have to say that i really dont understand what it is that you guys are wanting to resolve here...

Gene...I have no idea what you are talking about. Well, I do about the LOG & CAPTURE, but you have to realize that to most of us, logging the footage, then capturing it, is actually a time saver. This way, we scroll thru the footage at the capture phase, and know what we have. We also separate clips divided by subject that makes finding footage really easy and fast. But you don't need to log and capture...you can capture full tapes all you want. Many people do this. You aren't locked into logging and capturing. You can even capture now.

I hope Apple hears us on the problem of not working with just the timeline I/O. Why does FCP by default make us work with the entire clip?

What? What are you talking about? They don't. Are you dragging the entire clip onto the timeline and THEN chopping it up? If you load the clip into the viewer...mark an IN where you want the footage to start, and an OUT where you want the footage to end, THEN cut it into the timeline, you have only one section of the clip. Or are you complaining that the whole clip gets loaded into the Viewer?

There should be an option to "select timeline duration" or something.

Sorry...what? The timeline is as long as the footage you drop into it. It ends when your footage does. I don't get you.

No one is stopping you from CAPTURING NOW. We just highly recommend against it. Why? because you then have dozens to hundreds of clips called UNTITLED and UNTITLED 1...etc. This can lead to MANY issues down the road. It might not...but it can cause problems if you media manage a project, go to print an EDL or lose a hard drive and go to reconnect. Just because you haven't had issues up til now, doesn't mean that they won't happen. If you log and capture, you lessen the impact of those issues....and save tons of time.

But...heed our advice or don't. No one is lording over your shoulder demanding you things our way. Just know that if you complain when something bad happens, all you will get from us is "I told you so."

From me, at least.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

> But...heed our advice or don't. No one is lording over your shoulder demanding you things
> our way. Just know that if you complain when something bad happens, all you will get from
> us is "I told you so."

Hear, hear.

The fact is, Gene, all the tools are there if you want to Capture Now and then safeguard against issues that may arise from one-hour clips. Nick Meyers and Jude Cotter have repeatedly posted solutions that you can easily implement (such as Batch Exporting subclips, using the Description field to rename Capture Now files). Yes, these methods take time to implement as well. If you don't "like" these methods, then be prepared for the problems to slow you down and mess with your online, recapturing or media reconnect.

> Also, Log & Capture takes twice as long.

If you work with longer projects enough, you'll know that the time is well spent. When I need to make disk space, my clips are already clearly separated into takes with notes, and I can eliminate less desireable takes with the touch of a button. When I online, I don't even need to use the trim functions necessarily, because I can just recapture the clips as I logged them. I have the option of creating an online-quality batch list just by dragging my timeline back into a bin and deleting the non-media entries. I can manage my media files without even opening Final Cut Pro. I can copy clips necessary for FX work by simply using OS. You can't do any of that if you use Capture Now to make one-hour clips.

Yes, I spend about 2.5x more time logging and then capturing. But then I save days, even weeks of work down the line, and over the course of the entire edit. And an ironclad work method at the first stage will lessen the chance that you'll have to troubleshoot later...when there's a festival deadline or when the client's breathing down your neck.

If you don't like the safety methods we recommend, well, that's your choice. But don't you ever wonder why working editors like me, Shane and Wayne go through the painstaking procedures of logging? Just for fun?

I'd stress again: No assistant would get hired if s/he doesn't know how to log properly. You can use Capture Now -- it may be necessary for some types of media, such as non-timecoded sources -- but unless you know how to log and can make intelligent, experienced decisions as to which method you pick (rather than defaulting to Capture Now because that's all you know), you aren't ready to work as an assistant editor...or as your own assistant.


www.derekmok.com

this whole thread sounds like bitching to an automaker that their cars cant be easily driven from the passenger seat...

Boys and boys (and yes girls),

We are not the first ones to use FCP or the first to edit content on an NLE system.

Workflows are developed to save time and the tried and true ones come to the top. Even though FCP (or any Apple application for that matter) allows you to do things more than one way, there is usually one BEST way to get from A to B and we all learn this and use it until a better workflow is revealed.

Most people come here to find that one BEST way. Some, however want to fight this as if they have invented something better, in their mind. When you meet resistance to these types, it is because we feel that we have tried to serve you with or best knowledge and when it doesn't stick - we can feel like giving up.

I do not want to be insensitive to your physical impediments, but how can you expect to successfully shoot/capture and edit/output a visual medium with poor eyesight?

As I get older, my eyesight gets poorer and I need to find ways to compensate for this. But If I could not read a book and learn something, I would not be able to continue editing.

What we knew yesterday is not enough for today and that is the way all things happen.

I'm a documentarian so most of my footage is 1 hour interviews. Capture Now is pretty efficient, I capture, review, get a feel and make notes and name the clips to make it easy to find. I'd say that for 75 hours of material it took me 90 to do that. With Log and Capture it may be better organized, but would have taken at least 150 hours right? I see you guys point about the Log & Capture, which would be essential for features, but for docs I'll take Capture Now. My primary concern is about the whole clip being loaded into STP even though I am control-clicking on a ten second segment in the timeline. Maybe I'm not doing this right. I choose a ten second sound bite from a 10m minute long clip. Put it in the timeline, not just to fix audio but lets assume I have an hour long piece with hundreds of cuts and I'm redy to sweeten the audio by getting rid of some white noise in the background. I control-click and choose "Send to STP audio file project" But instead of ten seconds it will send all of the original 10 minutes. I may not need any of that 10 minutes but I do want the ten seconds in the middle. Does this make sense? No disrespect but this seems like a sensible workfow. I don't want to come across like a snotty-nosed kid with a sense of entitlement, but asking for solutions to these things is what make a better application.

I appreciate the responses so far. They've mostly been constructive. I want to share also...

Logging and capturing long clips can be made less time consuming when doing "capture clip".

Here are the benefits:

When you hit the > go button on your log and capture window and you're seeing the raw footage go by, you should hit "in" and "out" (I/O) on the fly. (Set the handles in preferences to 5, 6 or even 10 seconds. That way you don't have to stop the playback and rewind all the time.)

Then you click on "capture clip". A window opens up. Enter the description (name for the clip). Hit OK.

FCP 5 >>> RESUMES (rewinds to the end of the selected clip and resumes again) showing you the raw footage! You do not need to manually stop your camera and rewind or even to click on the log and capture console. This is the best part of this process. BIG TIP.

Keep doing this until all your movie has been captured.

Therefore, it's been my experience:

Do not use the log button to the left side of the CAPTURE bar, and

Only use the "Capture Clip" button, never the "Capture Now" button.

This way I've been able to capture and log quickly and effectively.

The purpose of this thread is for me to find out what other major problems exist in misuing FCP. And I hope this discussion will be beneficial to everyone.

One of the scariest features of FCP is it's non-destructive feature. On the surface it sounds great, "oh, I won't lose all the hard work I've put into my editing," but then FCP ends up collecting too much information and become totally unwieldy.

> One of the scariest features of FCP is it's non-destructive feature. On the surface it sounds
> great, "oh, I won't lose all the hard work I've put into my editing," but then FCP ends up
> collecting too much information and become totally unwieldy.

That's the user's fault, not the application's. If a user insists on keeping 50 versions of a 120-minute film in the same project file, all active, who's the one being foolish?

> I'm a documentarian so most of my footage is 1 hour interviews. Capture Now is pretty
> efficient, I capture, review, get a feel and make notes and name the clips to make it easy to
> find. I'd say that for 75 hours of material it took me 90 to do that. With Log and Capture it
> may be better organized, but would have taken at least 150 hours right?

See, this is why I think people need to learn logging. Because what you're talking about above is a misperception.

Logging does NOT necessarily mean watching every second of the footage in real time. If I were handling a tape that's one hour long, one interview, then what I'd do is log every 10-15 minutes of footage as one clip. You can still subclip later; you can still arrive at the capture stage after minimal effort. And a one-hour tape would take at most 10 minutes to log if you do it this way. That way, you end up with much better, smaller pieces, and you don't have to spend too much time getting the tapes into the computer, and smaller clips are much less likely to have timecode and sync drifts, or to become corrupt. And it has an added advantage: When Capture Now crashes or fails, for whatever reason (out of drive space, dropped frames, broken timecode), you often lose the entire clip. So if you Capture Now for 50 minutes and the clip fails to save, you've just wasted 50 minutes with absolutely nothing to show for it. If you take five seconds to log the clip first, you can just modify the In and Out points and restart the capture right away. And if your clips were in 10-to-15-minute segments rather than one-hour segments, you lose 10-15 minutes per failed clip, tops.

You have to know logging. There's no argument. Not understanding and mastering this tool is to give up a great deal of power, choice, convenience and diligence at the prep stage. You can choose not to use logging in certain situations, but you must understand the pros and cons of both methods.


www.derekmok.com

Gene...Interviews are the exception. For them OF COURSE I capture full tapes, or break them into two. I don't need to log every stupid question as a separate clip...I have transcripts to work with, timecoded, so I just enter the timecode and I am there.

I am talking about B-Roll...Re-enactments...narrative SCENES. You might have a shot fo downtown, the hollywood sign, the Getty, the beach and traffic on one tape. So instead of having a clip called "tape 1-b-roll", I break the clips up by subject. LA DOWNTOWN, HOLLYWOOD SIGN, GETTY MUSEUM, BEACH FOOTAGE, TRAFFIC. This way I can find what I am looking for easily.

AND...the clip name matches the captured clip name. I look in the CAPTURE SCRATCH folder and there I see, LA DOWNTOWN, GETTY, TRAFFIC...etc. Not UNTITLED 1, UNTITLED 2...or TAPE 1, TAPE 2.

Even for the Interviews, I name them ANNE COATS, TAPE 1. I mark an out...rewind the tape...mark an IN...then capture.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

All right! You guys have made a compelling argument to Log and Capture. Hell, I've been working on this thing for two years with another one to go so next time I go to start a new project I will take this advice. But does anyone know whats up with that STP thing?

Here it is, Gene. This is the problem.

It cannot be done.

You need to break everything down into shots. Yes, even documentaries.

Otherwise you can't use STP and I don't know what else in FCP Studio.

Thanks for backing me up. Otherwise they'd have steamrollered me. LOL

Vic & Gene,
You both seem to have missed a fundamental principle of the way a non-destructive NLE works. Whether it be a video or audio NLE, on your timeline you are working with CLIPS. Those clips are just a graphical reference to segments of Media FILES on your hard drive, they are NOT of themselves a media file. If you create large files, EVERY time you do something with a clip it has to reference the WHOLE FILE. That is the way NLE's have worked since their inception. If you would like your files to be smaller DO NOT capture whole tapes, or if you insist on capturing whole tapes or large chunks at a time, once you have your edit complete you could media manage to create individual media files of all your clips.

I dont see this as a misuse of FCP it is just another way of doing something, one is moe efficient than the other. Saying it is a misuse would be like saying going to>edit>copy or edit>paste, is a misuse because you can do it quicker by going >apple+C or Apple+V.

BTW if you still want to capture a complete tape you can still log and capture rather than capture now. Most of the time when you get a tape it will need to be rewound. So prior to rewinding, put an "out" point at the end. Rewind to the beginning and put an "in" point and call it"my interview". There, you have now logged that tape. Hit capture and go get a coffee. Did that take twice as long?

This clarifies a few important points, Frank. So logging can be done quite simply like that. I'm going to always do that from now on, especially when I haven't rewound the tape.

For me it's been a major problem until I figured it out the hard way that I need to be super careful about logging and capturing my movies.

Even though logging and organizing footage was stressed by many people in this forum, I'm the kind of filmmaker that likes to shoot by himself. I need to cut a lot of corners to be able to get my movies shot. So ... I must develop techniques that will allow me to edit faster but still be able to do a good job.

With film I had developed these techniques, but with NLE I had to learn new procedures. And like most creative people I'm a little stubborn :-) Or, let's say I have my own way of doing things.

To me, keeping the clips short is very important. Therefore, I know I have to use a lot of bins, otherwise I'll get confused with hundreds of shots. I'll be scrolling forever trying to find a shot.

STP is another matter. Here it's important to have small media files. This is the most important point I've learned from you, Frank.

When I'm in STP it's the media file that comes into play, not the edited clip.

For me, STP is very important. It's my only tool for completing my sound track and mixing it. At this point I don't want to buy other programs.

Theoretical question....If long clips were digitized (for whatever reason) and STP was need after cutting the sequence together....Could the "Make clip independant" function be applied to the sequence of clips, thereby causing thme NOT to reference the original long clip?

lasvideo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Theoretical question....If long clips were
> digitized (for whatever reason) and STP was need
> after cutting the sequence together....Could the
> "Make clip independant" function be applied to the
> sequence of clips, thereby causing thme NOT to
> reference the original long clip?

No, you are confusing clips with media files. By making a clip independant it may not reference the original long clip but it will still reference the original long media file. I suggest you read the chapter of the manual on media management.