Export Question

Hello,
This is my first time using FCP and DVD Sudio Pro, so basically what I need is for someone to tell me step by step what the best way to export is. My footage was shot on a Canon xm2 (mini dv Pal) & I want to create the best quality dvd possible (also, which is the best dvd to use?).
Thanks a million,
Billy.

wow billy. thats a lot that youre asking for there. kinda like "can you compress several chapters of the manual into a few lines?"

if its just about exporting for use in dvdspro, you can do one of two things:

1. file > export > quicktime movie - using current settings, audio and video and CHECK "recompress all frames " and "make movie self contained. this creates a stand alone movie that you can bring into dvdspro. and its is NOT dependent on your source fcp project. downside is this can take time and results in large and later redundant files

2. file > export > quicktime movie - using current settings, audio and video and DO NOT CHECK "recompress all frames " and "make movie self contained. this creates a "reference movie" that you can bring into dvdspro. and its is VERY MUCH dependent on your source fcp project. if you change or move anything (like backing up your projects to another folder) you will have to re-export from fcp and thus re-import the movie to dvdspro should you want to make another dvd in the future.

from what ive seen there is not difference in QUALITY in the two methods, just a matter of how much space and time you have and how dilligent you are at file management

hi wayne

what would be the benefit to checking "recompress all frames" in either of these situations
genuinely interested

cheers
Andy

wow - honestly, i dont know. just part of what ive always heard as part of the fcp independant stand- alone process... im happy to be wrong on that one?

Thanks Wayne,
I guess my main worry was that all the instructions I read were refering to hdv and my film is shot on mini dv - I thought there might be a difference in the best way to exort to dvd.
Basically, for now I just want to make a good quality dvd (as close to how it looks in fcp as possible) I can send to film festivals and/or offer TV channels for broadcast. I will have to make a good few copies. How long does the process normally take?
Also, what dvds would you recommend to use?
Again, sorry if my questions seem very basic - I'm learning from scratch!
Thanks again,
Billy

thanks for the honest reply Wayne, my understanding is that "Recompress All Frames" is not an option you want to choose without specific purpose ... ie the holy grail is to avoid any recompression wherever possible.

i don't think i've ever had to enable it in the export > quicktime movie window. the only instance where i've chosen to recompress is when exporting to xdcam, and thats only on the odd occasion when not doing so it has caused a problem with the mxf wrapping in xdcam transfer. thats a pretty rare occurence so i'll only enable it on a case by case basis.

Billy, an SD DVD would be simpler than an HDV DVD. You don't have to worry about the cadence problems of HDV, you don't have to resize your image.

Go with Wayne's #1 option, except it's not necessary to check "Recompress All Frames".

(Funny how even more experienced users like Wayne and myself don't know what exactly this option does. Even Kenstone.net doesn't give an explanation -- he simply tells us not to do it, which is what I've been going with the past seven years)

However, my recommendation is that if you're working with DVD Studio Pro or iDVD, don't go with a reference movie file. Always check "Make self-contained". Some people like using reference movie files, but they are a lot less stable, a lot less useful, completely unmovable (take them off the file system with the original clips on it and the movie file is useless), and worst of all, they slow down the DVD design process. Self-contained movie files don't need to communicate with other media files; all the sound and image are independent. I've had an assistant editor try to export an hour-long concert movie file in DV NTSC as a reference movie, and it dragged DVD Studio Pro to a crawl. Once I re-exported as self-contained, no problems whatsoever.

Let's also mention that if your source material is DV NTSC, your end DVD won't look all that great. Limitations of the format, and also of the "do-it-yourself" DVD burn. However, if you put that movie file through Compressor, you will get more options and control over quality and file size.


www.derekmok.com

Thanks again. Actually, I'm in Spain, so it's PAL, nit NTSC - but I'm going to just try it now & see how it turns out.
On more thing - what's the best way to simply put the film onto a dvd - no dvd format or anything, just the film on its own in the best possible quality?

thanks for covering my butt there derek ; ) embarassingly enough i figured that since it was checked by default there must have been a reason. damn sure im gonna go investigate that now!

to be honest billy, i always use option #2 and make a reference movie. simply because it's faster.
and most often once i burn the dvd, the project is done, it gets archived and i never see it again.

the "simplest" way is probably to use idvd and one of its default themes. but that wont provide the best quality. you cant simply drop a movie on a dvd an dexpect it to play, the disc needs to be "authored" to work in a dvd player. though i think toast may have some easy option for this - but ive never used it so youd have to look elsewhere for that info

here is the simplest and most straightforward, no bells or whistles way i know of to make an SD DVD using dvdspro:

1. export your movie from fcp using method 1 or 2 above
in the export process create a new folder for that movie. i generally call that folder "2_DVD" (just so i can readilly identify it in the finder)
2. in dvdspro, in the palette, go to the video tab then hit the + button to import your movie
3. drag that video to V1 in the track editor (if the track editor isnt visible, hit command9 or pull down window > track editor to bring it up)
4. in the main playback window (which will likely be called "untitled" at this moment) select the menu tab
5. again, go to the palette and select the "styles" tab. then select apple and buttons
6. scroll down to the PLAY button and drag that to your untitled menu window
7. right click (or option click if you have a one button mouse) and go to target > tracks and stories > track1 > chapter 1
8. click the simulate button to make sure it works (it will)
9. insert blank dvd-r
10. click the burn button
11. go have a beer

if youre coming from HDV or HD or dvcproHD the only extra step is before you export your movie, create a new uncompressed SD sequence in fcp, drop your finished HD sequence on to that. make any needed aspect adjustments then export THAT uncompressed movie using the above process.

Hi Guys,

Many years ago, Ralph Fairweather told us not to use the 'recompress all frames' when exporting either a self contained or ref movie when you want an exact clone of your timeline and the highest quality.

I just looked it up in Lisa Brenneis' Visual QuickPro Guide from PeachPit. Page 672

She says in part "... Uncheck this option if you want FCP to simply copy directly from the source file to the destination file. If you are not switching codecs, copying the files without recompressing is faster and will give you better quality."

--ken

then that just seems like a really useless checkbox. if you were switching codecs wouldnt you use the quicktime conversion option or even do it with a third party conversion app?

thanks ken ; )

Hi Wayne,

Not only does it seem useless I think that it is useless. If you wanted to switch codecs on export, you would use 'QT with Conversion' and not the QT movie export so the point is moot. It also cause a loss of quality if you do use the option.

I wish that they would remove the option and end the confusion.

My 2 cents.

--ken

Is there any difference between the "quality" that IDVD produces (on a DVD) vs DVD SP if the input movie is formatted the same?

iDVD is a consumer app and DVD SP is a pro app, yes there are differences.

The only way to export from FCP to iDVD is

File > Export > QT (Not with Conversion). Make Self Contained (or Ref movie, not self contained), Use Current Settings, Do Not Recompress all frames.

When you drop this into iDVD there are only two levels of encode quality, Better or Faster and this also depends on the length of your movie. Under 60 minutes will produce better quality than if the movie is over 60 minutes, which can be rather poor.

From FCP to DVD SP can be done in three ways, but each offers the same amount of encoding control.

1) You can export from FCP directly to Compressor. Then move the exported MPEG2 and audio into DVD SP.

2) You can export as a QT movie (as above) and drop that into Compressor. Then move the exported MPEG2 and audio into DVD SP.

3) Export from FCP as a QT movie (as above), then drop the QT export into DVD SP. In DVD SP, Prefs are the encode settings.

Having access to the encoding settings in either Compressor or DVD SP enables us to maximize the quality of the MPEG2 output.

--ken

I would like to add my own opinions here. I have been through many trenches since FCP and iDVD were introduced. Perhaps you will find them useful.

1.) I only choose a Reference Movie in emergencies like I'm gonna miss the Fed Ex deadline. Otherwise, please use "Make Movie Self Contained". A Reference Movie is a very fragile thing. It really cannot be relied upon as an archive or for future use unless you NEVER throw away or move render files or original clips. Because it depends on all of those HUGE capture and render files you made in FCP, it is doomed to become useless within the year.

Besides, people are not only keeping tape masters of their shows these days but digital file masters. With the cost of hard drives so low, why would you not have a single, complete, and pristine master movie sitting on your hard drive forever?

2.) Keep an HDV master movie file as well, even if your going to regular DVD right now. You'll be so happy next year.

3.) If your making an down-converted SD movie to bring into iDVD or DVDSP make it Uncompressed or DVC-PRO 50. Compressor has great High Quality presets for these conversions too. They rock.

The point is, why not use the best kind of SD codec before compressing to MPEG-2? Even if you dont have fast enough hard drives to play back this kind of file -- it doesnt matter to iDVD or DVDSP.

And honestly, you don't even have to do that step. iDVD takes an HDV movie directly and will convert it to SD MPEG-2 when you drag it in to a project. It even makes a proper Anamorphic DVD when you select a "Widescreen" template. very cool.

4.) Make an Anamorphic 16x9 DVD instead of a letterbox DVD. Anamorphic DVDs act properly whether they are being watched on an SD-TV or an HDTV. Letterbox DVDs look horrible on HDTVs, with both letterboxing and pillar-boxing sanctioning your movie into a little box in the center of the screen. Its embarrassing.

5.) I dont know about DVDSP, but in iDVD if you are making an project from an SD Anamorphic movie file, as opposed to an HDV file, you will need to preform a little trick to get iDVD to treat it properly.

A. open anamorphic movie in QuickTime Pro

B. press Command-J

C. select "Video Track" and the "Visual Settings" tab.

D. UN-check "Preserve Aspect Ratio" and turn your video into 854x486 or 854x480, depending on your height.

E. Press Return and Save. Now it will behave in iDVD and on HDTVs

6.) This is totally subjective, but I have been very happy with iDVD when you select "Best Quality" over "Best Performance" in the Preferences BEFORE you bring your movie in. iDVD now scales the quality to be the best it can be for the length of your show. Its good and better than it used to be. I cant prove this, but my gut feels like it is the same as the auto-compress in DVDSP. It just looks good.

7. a great and stripped down interface is the "Full Frame" named template. It even does a good 16x9 Widescreen version. Remember to keep your text inside what a 4:3 TV would be able to see. Use the "Show Standard Crop Area" under the View menu.

Good luck.

- Christopher S. Johnson

The notes I made above are about the latest version of iDVD 6.

- Christopher S. Johnson

Quote

Christopher SJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
1.) I only choose a Reference Movie in emergencies
like I'm gonna miss the Fed Ex deadline.
Otherwise, please use "Make Movie Self Contained".
A Reference Movie is a very fragile thing. It
really cannot be relied upon as an archive or for
future use unless you NEVER throw away or move
render files or original clips. Because it
depends on all of those HUGE capture and render
files you made in FCP, it is doomed to become
useless within the year.

No disagreement with your post Chris, but just want to clarify, to any who might later refer to this thread ... one might choose to use a Reference Movie whenever you have need for a "temporary" local copy of you movie.

There are a number of reasons why you might want this.
One scenario (mine) is when using third party software to post process a movie... obviously I would already have the source media and renders on disc, and my need is to create a new copy of the movie in a format not directly supported by export from FCP/Compressor.
My workflow would be to export a reference movie of my edit (which is faster than exporting self-contained and, more importantly, doesn't waste additional hard disc space) then I can use that movie as the source to create my transcoded master.

Hope that's a useful example.

To me, the only advantage of a reference movie is to save disk space. Reference movies don't react nearly as well to processing -- all it takes is one file out of the 1,000 media and render files going back, and it's beddy-bye time.

And of course, you can't take a reference movie file anywhere. Whereas a self-contained movie file, once created, can be sent to the online house as a reference, to the sound designer, to the scorer, to the effects guy, and to the producer, while the editing station keeps rolling. You can stick it onto an old G3 with internet connection and start the upload while you continue editing, burning the DVD, or whatever you want to do. And if your editing media tanks, a reference movie is completely useless, while a self-contained file can be used to output a tape for a deadline, act as picture reference for sound and picture, as well as serve as a visual reference if you need to recapture and reconform.


www.derekmok.com

people are talking like reference movies are some kind of evil entities. they arent going to hurt you or anything. worst thing that happens is you'll have to render another reference movie and import that into your dvdspro project in place of the existing one (of course dvdspro will take a few minutes futilly looking for the one it wanted that is now gone or unrecognizably changed - and this can be scary the first time it happens).

if your project is done, or if you are in a pinch time wise a reference movie is just the ticket.
however like derek says, if you are working in a collaborative situation or have to move things to other machines on a regular basis they are pretty much out of the question.

> people are talking like reference movies are some kind of evil entities. they arent going to
> hurt you or anything.

Nah. Not people. Just me.
I never use reference movies because they cost me a lot more time in hangups, lost media files, confusion and producer/assistant screwups than the small amount of extra time it takes to make the thing self-contained. And the fact that reference movies don't do what I need them to (eg. DVD encoding -- reference movies beachball; self-contained ones don't).

I just believe in choosing the best solution from the get-go, not the speediest. "Speedy" solutions often come with a price tag down the road. But the people who find uses for reference movies...all the more power to ya. Faster for you isn't faster for me, and vice versa.


www.derekmok.com

great points derek. this is a really good example of different processes for different markets and applications.

Very informative thread! While we?re on about ?best?, I have a question: before exporting, I routinely take the edited material on my SD DV sequence time line, copy and paste it into a new uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 sequence and then render my effects there and use that for exporting. My theory is that all the colour correction and other gack I?ve added then renders in 4:2:2 colourspace (rather than DV?s 4:1:1) which I?m thinking will translate with higher quality into mpeg2?s 4:2:0 colourspace. Is this wanking- wasting time and disc space?

randy

Randy, I believe that is absolutely correct. Any clip with a filter or transition will render better, and obviously you dont even need a drive fast enough to play it. Even DVCPRO-50 looks great and is 4:2:2.


- Christopher S. Johnson

> before exporting, I routinely take the edited material on my SD DV sequence time line, copy
> and paste it into a new uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 sequence and then render my effects
> there and use that for exporting. My theory is that all the colour correction and other gack
> I?ve added then renders in 4:2:2 colourspace (rather than DV?s 4:1:1) which I?m thinking will
> translate with higher quality into mpeg2?s 4:2:0 colourspace.

I don't think that's the case. The original media is at DV 4:1:1. You don't gain quality from putting that into Uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2. You'll only gain quality from elements that have never touched the DV codec -- like FCP-generated titles, graphics from another application, colour mattes etc. And then you also have to consider what format you're ending up with. If you're outputting a DV tape at the end, then there's no point to moving the media to an Uncompressed 10-bit, because the DV tape has its limitations.


www.derekmok.com

I know that there?s a visible differnce with titles doing this: major woes with 4:1:1 jitter on a credit roll was what led me to trying it in the first place (jitters dissappeared- and never reappeared all the way through to DVD playback) and I know this is futile if I ever go back to DV. And I know that what I see on my NTSC monitor is no guide- because it?s output through my DVCAM deck at 4:1:1. But, as I think you?re saying, Derek, none of that is relevant

I THINK the final DVD output looks better but the simple fact that it cured my titling woes- which were dramatic, and very much 4:1:1 related- may have been misleading me?Oh well.

Thanks, anyway.

randy