XDCAM vs HVX200 720p

I'm attempting to dot the "I's" and cross the t's before my next project commences.. camera to post.... its documentary style that will end in hi-def dvd's and sd dvds in a retail setting and a 30 or 60 min hd show suitable for broadcast. I"m satisfied with the quality/budget ratio for the HVX200 @720p and post workflow, and now looking at what alternatives are available, i.e. the XDCAM. I know nothing of the quality and workflow issues. Noticed the new sony xdcam in my price range...thus the curiosity.
What say you lads and ladies?

Thanks in advance for your comments/insights
Sanjay

PS.. planning to purchase G-5 on ebay, caldigit raids, aja cards if necessary, etc.

Pepsi or Coke. Take your pick.

Mark

Oh, but there's that pesky "archiving" issue with P-2 files that XDCAM doesn't have.

Yes, that pesky archive thing...That is the one drawback.


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Yep, pesky to say the least.
So you all are saying that I'll get same production quality on the screen either way... how about the post work flow? Shane, you've often sated how comfortable dvcprohd timelines are... where does XDCAM fall in this issue?
tnx
Sanjay

Ive never used an XDCAM workflow before but here are a couple of factoids to put in the hopper:

1.) if you are looking at the not-yet-released, under $10,000 small XDCAM camera (which sounds awesome on paper) then you wont have discs or tapes with that either. It uses a much cheaper, larger, more ubiquitous data card than Panasonic's.

2.) Bare SATA drives are sometimes cheaper than HDCAM or DigiBeta tape, so you can archive a drive on the shelf and not be spending more -- just think of the drive as master tapes.

3.) The XDCAM probably has higher resolution and better CCDs, but is more compressed than DVCPRO-HD. Slow moving shots and interviews will almost undoubtedly look better on an XDCAM running at 35mbits/sec. A camera strapped to the front of a Jeep on a trail will probably look better on DVCPRO-HD, even with the higher res chips. This is just an educated guess.

4.) Doing a doc is difficult with short record times on the HVX200. Can you handle the short record times?

Oops, I meant to say:

"A camera strapped to the front of a Jeep on a trail will probably look better on DVCPRO-HD, even with the lower res chips.

Heh.

-CJ

Re the action shots, there will be several heli flights, and tracking.. and hopefully dollies. We'll see how the budget holds out. But no action/pov stuff planned.

The archiving is a focused concern. I'd rather not have the hassle but am presuming that the savings in the camera will contribute to higher production values elsewhere, given the proven track record of the hvx200 @ 720p.

The NAB notices re the new sony xdcam looked intriguing. Especially the longer record times, yey. But eva body knows ya don't get sumpin fo nuthin.. thus the inquiry here with those who have trod before me.

Since I know zip about the xdcam work flow, what works best in the fcp timeline? I have 5.x (latest upgrades) and would be willing to move to studio2 if that's a wise move. I'll probably be editing on a quad pre intel ... will ineed aja cards for best ingest?

tnx in advance
Sanjay

I am not sure I follow what you guys mean with "shorter recording times" on the HVX?
I use a HVX with an attached Firestore drive and I have no issues whatsoever.
At 720 p 30fps you can fit hours into one drive.
Get one more and you should be fine.
Just fill one drive up and offload it on a backupdrive while you use the other one.

Or am I missing something here?

Johan Polhem
Motion Graphics
www.johanpolhem.com

Nope, you are 100% right, I was forgetting the Firestore option.

-CJ

Quote
Sanjay
Since I know zip about the xdcam work flow, what works best in the fcp timeline? I have 5.x (latest upgrades) and would be willing to move to studio2 if that's a wise move. I'll probably be editing on a quad pre intel ... will ineed aja cards for best ingest?

XDCAM HD workflow is non tape based. It's a file based ingest system like the P2. On a Quad G5 you would need firewire800 drives minimum for playback but SATA would get you more realtime. You would only need a card for HD monitoring. And to figure out what your output format is and how you'll get there from DVProHD or XDCAM.

Sony announced a file access only XDCAM "drive" (I.E.no video in/out) that would allow you to back up footage from the new card-only camera to XDCAM disks but this isn't proven and so far printing back to XDCAM has been slow.
Going with the new XDCAM camera would be a risk as it is unproven in many ways and any workflow developments would be experimental.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

Any issues with the firestore?

ive not used the firestore with my hvx but did with my old xl2. the device worked fine, BUT that spindly little 4 pin firewire connection caused no end of worry... never fell out, but i usually had my camera locked on a tripod when using the firestore.

there has been a TON of discussion on the hvx/firestore combo over at dvxuser.com in the HVX section

"Going with the new XDCAM camera would be a risk as it is unproven in many ways and any workflow developments would be experimental."

AK,

Not exactly true.

We've been working with the XdCAM Standard Version (Not HD) for over three years. The HD Version is just an extrapolation of the earlier SD version. We're not in HD yet, so I can't comment on that, for for SD, the "File Based transfer" works quite nicely. In fact, we have one show where the deadline is so tight, that we have teams of "mobile digitizers" picking up discs and doing a transfer in the car on the way back from the set. They're using the Sony PDW-D1 (it's basically just an external blue ray disc player) and copying directly to a macbook pro. By the time they walk in the door, hours of coverage is now already "digitized". We copy those files to our X-SAN and the team is good to go.

Be aware that FCP does NOT play well with the Sony generated proxies. If that were the case, XD-CAM would be a slam dunk for FCP users. I'll just repeat my first comment here: It's like Pepsi or Coke. They both taste great. The user really should make an exhaustive test of both and not just decide based on a quick opinion poll here on the boards.

Mark

Sorry Mark, I meant the new new XDCAM HD camera. The more compact,records on Xpress cards, aimed at the HVX200 competition one. That they announced at NAB. It was in the same press release as the other XDCAM HD stuff along with the new model decks, the drive, and the 3 x 2/3" chipped camera.
I too have worked with XDCAM HD and found it useful. I liked the ability to work and ingest at the same time. I liked the quick ingest and the clean shoot 24/ingest 24 methodology. No pulldown required. We were just offlining so the picture quality was not something I dealt with primarily as they did an HD conform from the decks, but I know the post house liked the quality of the F70 deck.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

Johan, youre in Aus, aren't you? Why shooting 30fps?

Hi Jude.

Thats true.
I was just assuming Sanjay was in the US.

BTW. Do you know anywhere I can buy a used digi Beta deck?
How much can you get them for?

Sorry to go off topic.
Are you in AUS as well?

Johan