is USB 2.0 fast enough for FCP work?

Just wondering if anyone has been working on projects off an external HD with USB 2.0 speed? Does it work as good as FW or slow down & freeze up like earlier versions of USB? Only reason I ask is the FW ports on one of my 500gb ext drives just died (USB's still work) and was thinking of installing a 2.0 card to work with that drive. At current USB V1 speed it would take 5 years to transfer all the stuff out of it

No USB is supported by Apple for use with video applications.

is that no it won't work or or a yes??

That's it may work. It'll work for moving files around. You maybe will get one data stream, and it may drop frames, and maybe a couple of audio tracks and it may drop frames, and you may be able to capture to it, as long as it's not too full or fragmented, and it may work if you use low data rate material.

If you're looking for a yes or no answer like Wolf Blizter in a debate than it's a no.

The constant data stream nature of video doesn't get along well with USB drive management technology.

Like with other gray areas, it doesn't out and out fail as much as your possibility of failure goes way up. It's the difference betwen relaxing with a cappuccino during live video, and constantly watching the monitor without blinking (you, not the monitor) to make sure it doesn't screw up.

Koz

Now, that's the best damn explanation of it I have ever heard!

Kozikowski Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The constant data stream nature of video doesn't
> get along well with USB drive management
> technology.
>
> Like with other gray areas, it doesn't out and out
> fail as much as your possibility of failure goes
> way up. It's the difference betwen relaxing with
> a cappuccino during live video, and constantly
> watching the monitor without blinking (you, not
> the monitor) to make sure it doesn't screw up.
>
> Koz

<<<Now, that's the best damn explanation of it I have ever heard! >>>

Thanks!

I gotta go lie down now.

Koz

It absolutely WILL NOT work without dropping frames. The data pipe is not large enough.

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

USB 2.0 sucks even for use as a backup drive. FW is what you need for video.

Graeme

Amen, Graeme. FW400 minimum (FW800 recommended)

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

USB v2 is faster than FW - I use it all of the time

Faster, yes, but video likes a sustained data rate, and FW offers that. USB might work for DV, is does for many people. But that's where it stops. USB is not recommended by anyone for video work...except on a PC, and those guys are just nutty anyway.

:^)


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Every so often we have these threads where folks swear up and down USB2 is faster and works just great for Video capture into FCP and USB2's numbers are higher than FW400/800 and "I use it all the time and it works," yakity yak. Bottom line is USB2 is NOT supported by Apple for capture into FCP and as Shane mentions, for video you need a SUSTAINED data rate flow, which USB2 cannot do. End of story. Don't use it.

Michael Horton
-------------------

Quote
Horton hears a Who:
Bottom line is USB2 is NOT supported by Apple for capture into FCP

But we also know that Apple doesn't "support" Firewire either for this purpose. Even though FW's sustained rate specs are better than USB, they are still not officially blessed. All we have to support either one is anecdotal evidence. Or has Apple come out with a new position on FW?

Scott

That was FW DRIVES not FW for capture. And I believe they have changed their mind on that one. None of us ever listened anyway.

Michael Horton
-------------------

FireWire's success rate capturing full-quality 29.97fps DV NTSC is about 95 per cent. USB is about one per cent. End of discussion. Apple's support is only secondary information -- real-life experiences determine that USB's success rate is far too low to be a practical choice.


www.derekmok.com

Right, Shane...the key words are "sustained transfer rate".

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

jesus did i start a major debate? I figured it wasn't as good as FW, the PC ppl are always over-rating their stuff. Why is it PC users hate Macs so much? (and visa versa) It really is a war between PC and Mac users, kinda of like the Spartans (Mac users) vs the Romans (PC users) in "The 300"

Chachoogo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jesus did i start a major debate? I figured it
> wasn't as good as FW, the PC ppl are always
> over-rating their stuff. Why is it PC users hate
> Macs so much? (and visa versa)

PC people like to really build their own stuff and configure things on their own. Also they are gamers...as the BIGGEST arguement I hear is "there are a lot more games on PC." Like I care!

PCs have more software available to them, and really can be stable machines. Us mac guys like the BMW feeling of a Mac. It costs a lot, and runs like it! SO we can't build our own..so what. They are built fine and are solid machines. You'll find a lot more creative people on macs because they are beautiful machines that don't require a lot of TECH KNOWHOW to get working, or to navigate thru the Windows environment.

Then there are the Linux people who are UBER geeky and don't like anything you can't build yourself and where the software is all free.

> It really is a war
> between PC and Mac users, kinda of like the
> Spartans (Mac users) vs the Romans (PC users) in
> "The 300"

Persians. Not Romans...Persians. Not one Roman soldier in that whole movie.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Some of the confusion about the perceived speed of USB 2.0 throughput maybe a result of some people seeing it in Windows configurations versus Macintosh ones. Windows laptops and boxen often have WAAAAY better USB throughput than their Mac counterparts. I've seen it evidence of this more than a few times. USB 2.0 on a Mac is generally way slower than on a windows box.

FireWire's a deliberately designed digital video prototcol-- streaming as opposed to USB's PACKETS. Now whoever tres to capture PACKETS???

>a war between PC and Mac users

Not anymore! We can be Windows anytime we like. You know, for the games.

> kinda of like the Spartans (Mac users) vs the Romans (PC users) in "The 300"

Kinda like a fresh meadow vs a compost heap.

[Not one Roman soldier in that whole movie.]

Of course not. They were just locals in a warehouse against a green screen, fronted by a few pro actors.

- Loren
Today's FCP 5 keytip:
Set Video Only In and Out with Control I or O !

The FCP KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

Loren Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FireWire's a deliberately designed digital video
> prototcol-- streaming as opposed to USB's PACKETS.

Your first statement is correct but your second one is misleading to a degree but I think it is more a confusion of terminology.

Every I/O protocol uses a form of packets or error correction by either wrapping the info in error correction or having checksums. It amounts to the same thing. The issue with IO throughput comes largely with buffering and not packeting. In other words, as we all know video throughput excels when you have bursts of large chunks of data going through rather than a machinegun fire of small chunks of data.

**post edited by the author to remove off topic rant**

This is all fascinating, but in practical terms, do you want to buy a USB drive for your Mac video system today? The answer is not really for most of the stuff we do with our computer and our software. Might be great on a PC, but we're not working on PCs. Might be fast in the future, but we have to edit today.

So to answer the question posed at the beginning of the thread, I guess I should not have brought Apple into it, should not have prevaricated, and simply said, "No."

i have friends on a windows machine running premiere pro using lacie usb2.0 drives and they report no problems at all which i find very odd.

wonder if its a mac/pc thing?

i was on a pc with vegas before. i hated vegas and the problems i had with it.

Honestly i just cant respect someone who says the edit on a pc. there are way to many issues with it. to much servicing and tweaking not enough drag and drop. plus if you really look at the screen on a pc the images are never as clear as on a mac.

Pc editing is like having a birthday party with cake and ice cream but no candles, forks, or paper plates.

the best transfer rates come from fw8, sata, and fiber optics.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

Whoa there JCorbett
Making a blanket statement about all PC editing based on your experience with Vegas is a little misguided, don't you think.
I have edited on PCs. Finished broadcast shows on them. They were called AVIDs. Fine product. Expensive, but solid. And guess what, media management is a cakewalk compared to FCP.
Maybe not respecting anyone who edits on PCs is your way of keeping the list of people you respect short and manageable. That birthday part you mentioned would be a small one then I guess.
Vegas is an unusual product in that it didn't start out as a video based program. I haven't heard much good about it from broadcast people but I do know that it has stuff that makes it appealing to others trying different experimental uses of video. I know you could cut and mark video to bars and beats in Vegas and other things that no one has even thought to ask for in FCP or AVID.


Too Little Knowledge + Premature Judgement = Only the slightest whiff of wisdom.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

not ment to be blanket but its so much harder to do things on a pc. i pc'ed for all but the last 6 or 7 years and now i am "macin" and it is better as far as a stability and resolution.

i have used advid before its a good program and yeas very expensive in comparison to fcp. i would have to disagree with the file management being better. it does have some nice bells and whistles.

fcp seems to help you skip all of the tedious prep and such and allows you to get directly to your creativity. there are a lot of cominalities in how things work. no matter what mac program you use on you mac with exception of adobe products, everything works the same. OPT drag is a copy almost in every project things like that. if advid was so wonderful they wouldn't be losing market share to fcp.

i am sure that pc editor are just as good as mac editors but a lot of you guys are somewhat in love with knowing how to service the machine that carries the program. and i would even be that there is proof out there that supports my statement about how your work looks on screen when comparing pc's to mac.

it all boils down to which one you are most comfortable with. which one allow your to flow the way you feel.

do you still use pc's and advid andrew?

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

> Honestly i just cant respect someone who says the edit on a pc.

Something of a befuddled statement.

It's not about the tools. It's about the editor. If an editor produces a brilliant show on iMovie or Adobe Premiere, all the more power to him/her.

In fact, using tools that may be less efficient (and I don't think PCs are necessarily less efficient...just depends on how juiced up they are, what applications are being used, how well maintained, etc.) would be what I consider very impressive.

I'm not a big Avid fan based on my limited experience, but I sure as hell am going to give Avid editors the respec they deserve. I think of it as being: They know a whole new world that I don't.


www.derekmok.com

USB2 and FCP are not a good combnation for capture and playout. You would be highly unlikely to get the sustained data rates you need to ensure no dropped frames.

If you work in a file transfer environment, for import and export of media, then this may be less of an issue. A few dropped frames during editing/playback is no big deal.

Quote

Honestly i just cant respect someone who says the edit on a pc.

Whether you meant it to be a blanket statement or not, it is. That's like saying I own a chevy & I don't respect anyone that drives a ford. All the Avids in my facility are PC & I don't think any less of the editors because of the machines they are using.

Quote

A few dropped frames during editing/playback is no big deal.

Sure it is...especially when you are dealing with grafix / animations in your projects.

...my 2¢

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.