Which Cam to choose?

If you were given $5K to go buy the closest thing to a pro HDDV cam, which would you choose?
I'll appreciate your take on this.

Alberto

hvx200 for ntsc
hvx202 for pal

there someplaces on the net that i have seen them for 4200.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

The closest to a HD DV camera (is that what you meant) a High Def DV camera? Is an HDV camera! The HDV cameras have the same frame sizes 1080 and 720 as all high def images.

However, the reason a lot of us are moving to the panasonic HVX200 is because of it's versatility.

Panasonic has it's own DVCPRO-25 version of DV plus DVCPRO-50 which is equivalent to DigiBeta and DVCPRO HD which has the capabilities to shoot in almost any imaginable format used today.

The HVX uses 1/3" CCD's but they are not true 1920x1080 so, Panasonic fudges to get that resolution. The HVX shoots 1080 in interlaced and progressive as well as 720 progressive in a large assortment of frame rates.it also gives 4:2:2 color space capabilities for all except DV which HDV cameras do not.

The down side of the HVX is using expensive P2 cards to record DVCPRO-50-HD to and a real lack of long form shooting time where a tape based HDV camera does not lack it.

Hauffen,
You couldn't have picked a worse place on the entire planet to ask this question. Prepare to be inundated by hordes of HVX loonies who've managed to convince themselsves that P2 cards - far from being the bare faced rip off that rational folk know them to be - are actually the greatest thing since sliced bread. And Yes that includes the 16GB versions.
Astonishingly, our old friend Wayne G has yet to pick up the baton on this one, but rest assured you'll soon be hearing from him.
You best bet may be to hang on a couple of months for the Sony XD EX or whatever its called, but if you want to get something in the meantime i'm very impressed with my Canon XHA1 which shoots nice pics with an above average lens, great manual control, and an exeptional price tag too. You can always bung it on ebay come September, get 2/3 of your money back and buy the Sony.

Wake me up when its all over.

youre not gonna hear a peep outta me on this subject ever again. ive said all i need to say about it and anyone who wants that info can EASILY find it with a quick search the forum ; )

love, wayne

p.s. not so sure dom, that i take too kindly to being backhandedly called both a loony and irrational ...

AW! come on, lighten up Wayne. no offence intended. I'm Just kidding. I've enjoyed your tirades against the evils of HDV and have come to agree with you on a number of issues. My latest pan with the A1 reminded me of lazy days on the beach in Goa with windowpanes and Furry freak Bros blotters, but its still a great cam as is the HVX. It was just that Hauffen's query reminded me of a number of other posts i've read on this subject in which you featured frequently. I think the answer to Hauffen's question is that all these cams are both flawed and excellent for different reasons. Who knows, if i get a couple more well paying gigs with my A1, i might be an HVX owner this time next year, with 64GB P2 cards.

Geee! Didn't expect to raise hell with my question. But all replies are most welcome, for sure.

Yes, It's an HDV cam what I'm after, one as versatile as possible.
I crave for the HVX200 for those features, especially its 4:2:2 color space capability. But I'd hate to pay big bucks for those cards, with no third party brand in the horizon.
I'm a long-time fan of Canon lenses (I have a GL1).
While I don't expect to find the perfect cam, I guess I should wait to see what's in that Sony XD EX, or whatever it's called.
Many thanks to all who answered, and to those who might still add to the selection.

Alberto

PS: Hey, Don. This was the right place to ask!

ha - i was just winding you up Dom ; )

hauffen

Dont worry about the P2 cards, just get the firestore HDD and you'll never have to worry about P2 again.

People here are not raving about how fantastic HVX and P2 are cause they are not fantastic at all.
Its an "OK" format at a good price.

People here are complaining about how absolutely useless the HDV codec is and that is fair enough since it does suck.

Johan Polhem
Motion Graphics
www.johanpolhem.com

Oh Dom:

The humanity! To call all of us HVX zealots, zealots! How dare you! ;-)

I may have a few unique qualifications compared to many posters on the web, I have actually shot extensively with all of the candidates in question. We bought two of the Z1s, we own the XL-H1 as well as four of the HVX-200s and I have well over 200 hours shot with each, except with the HVX, which we used to shoot a couple of cable pilots last year. I would estimate I have shot around 1,500 8GB P2 cards worth of footage with the HVX.

The only candidate I do not have extensive experience with is the JVC HD-100. I hate JVC and would never buy one although I will admit that they have a great picture, good ergonomics and cool features. I just feel that they are not reliable enough for my needs.

Some random observations...

1. The XL-H1 has very nice colorimetry. Nice lens. Nice feature package. BUT the eyepiece is close to useless. I shot an EPK package with one in Texas and my boss is still giving me crap that some of my outdoor interviews are soft, which they were. The peaking and focus aid on that camcorder do not do the trick for me, I can barely ever tell when shots are in focus.

The other sucky things about the Canons are that nothing but the Canon camcorders playback their 24f mode, which is the way, of course, that everyone wants to shoot with them. Not having a dedicated deck sucks and fighting with the editors over who gets to use the camcorder, me to go shoot more stuff or the editors so they can digitize what I have shot, is a nightmare. Plus it is overpriced at $9,000.00 Yeah, you can get a XA-G1 or XA-H1 but then you are losing a large reason to buy a Canon, removable lens.


2. The Sony. I have shot with the Z1 a lot. Went to Monument Valley, all over the American Southwest and shot two or three long docs with it. Nice picture, low noise. Stupid ergonomics. Stupid menu system. The 24 and 25 CF modes give me a headache to look at, the cadence is all wrong and random. So I have to shoot interlaced only. Great on-camera monitor. Interlace is really ugly once you have spent a few years shooting progressive. Oh, and the sucker's light sensitivity is slow, really slow, have to use much more light to get a decent exposure. The newer V1 cures a lot of these issues. Real 24P. CMOS array. It's a nice little camera and uses Sony's new 60GB HD recorder for another $1,500.00. It's a sweet little package and would be my strong second choice if I didn't hate the HDV codec so much and if I didn't want to tie up another $3,000.00 to $5,000.00 in a Sony HDV deck. Let's do some practical math, Camcorder (V1) is $4,300.00, HD recorder is $1,500.00 and a decent HDV deck, another $3,500.00. So you are in for a total of $9,300.00 to do it right.


3. The HVX. Wow, what a controversial camera. If I mainly shot long form, I would get the Sony. Weddings, docs that you have to roll a ton of footage on, event work. BUT, it can be done with the P2 cards. The pilot we shot last year, we used over 600 8GB cards (not physically that many, but that many loads). We physically only had a dozen cards. That's a lot of card shuffling. I did routinely do two camera shoots by myself, often with professional Hollywood talent, so the pressure is often on. I am regularly DP, dual camera operators, sound and production designer, all by my little self. It can be done. Is it a challenge, heck yes, one screw up and you could lose footage or screw up the shoot. The HVX has beautiful colorimetry, contrast, gamma, etc. It is not the sharpest camcorder of the group, it's a bit soft, which I like. When I used to always shoot with the sharpest camera, I would always end up softening up the picture through filtration, either on the lens or in post anyway. So having the most razor sharp picture is not important to me for most shoots.

P2 is a whole different mindset and it's not for everyone. If you routinely vomit forth hours and hours of footage that edit down to short form (in other words, if you shoot indiscriminately), you need to shoot with more discretion regardless of the format anyway. Shooting P2 is sort of a little bit more like film, it teaches you to actually hit the stop button occasionally. The cameras ergonomics are great, coming from a DVX, the camera feels like home. The viewfinder is okay, the lcd screen sucks. Such is life. Most of the places I shoot are on movie sets, tv sets, tabletop and interview in studio so I can always drag my PB G4 and a hard drive and dump cards as I shoot. I shot a 20 card, two camera interview on Friday by myself. I dumped all of the cards and even cloned the drive before we were totally packed up. It's not that hard, it just requires you to be awake and not screw it up. The P2 Store, I like the idea of it, but it's too slow. My PB G4 and a FirewWire drive are really quick and I have no problem in shooting interviews and dumping all of the cards as I shoot and interview.

The 16GB cards will ease the burden and the 32GB cards will make life MUCH easier. The prices are coming down. You can get the HVX for $5,100.00, anything under $5,000.00 is either gray or a scam. You can then buy two 16GB cards for about $1,700.00. Total outlay is $6,800.00 and you can shoot 80 minutes of 720 24PN uninterrupted without even dumping the cards or you can do what I do and dump them as you shoot, it's not rocket science. Then in January of '08, when you can actually buy a 32GB card, you sell your 16s and buy a couple of 32s. Then you have 160 minutes of storage. Bliss and you will still be well under the dollar amount of the Sony or Canon solutions.

I will say, out of the three cameras, I have shot my best footage consistently with the HVX. I like the other two systems, but to me, HDV is useless for green screen and for motion. For interviews or stationary subjects, it's fine but for keying and or movement, can't beat 4:2:2 and DVCProHD, it's just plain better than HDV.

No question that for many of us, the HVX is the best choice for our needs. But they are all great cameras overall, compared to the last generation, this generation of camcorders are all capable of amazing footage in HD. We have come a long way from the PD-170 and DVX-100 and XL-2.

All the best,

Dan Brockett

hey dan what is the footage like if you dont use the p2?

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

Wow. I just wanted to say thanks to dan for putting down all that info - that sort of stuff is what makes these forums gold. thanks dan!
greg

Yup - me too. Excellent observations I think Dan - and well written. Thanks for putting in the effort. Anyone going to argue against his points I wonder?

Devil me advocate

JR.

Wow!!!

As I said: There's no better place than this one when it comes to asking about digital video. Thanks to all and, especially, to Michael Horton!

Dom, my humble apology for having mistyped your name.

Great post Dan. Thanks for taking the time.

Michael Horton
-------------------

An illuminating contribution Dan.

A couple of points:
This side of the pond (England) the prices of the P2 workflow far exceed those you mention. The HVX with 1 8GB P2 card goes well over the $US 8000 mark. furthermore i figured i'd have to buy a Laptop to capture. Last year i switched to Macs after years with Prem Pro on the Pc, and i would have had to have bought a macbookpro at $US 3000. Thats 11 big ones before you start thinking about a bag, batteries, and all the other knick knacks that give the cam its full potential. In real terms i was about to part with 12 grand to get my show on the road and that was before i considered the storage implications of P2.
As things panned out i spent less than £3000 ($6000) so thats a major difference in my (bank)book.
You're dead right about the Canon deck situation, but i can live with using the cam for now at least.
Am i happy with the HDV codec regards motion (haven't done blue screen since i was at art school)? Not really, but again, i can live with it for the time being.
Would i swap my A1 for an HVX? You bet! As long as there was no cash adjustment outlay on my part (fat chance).
Would i pay twice as much for the Canon XL HI? No Way! I'd have got the HVX in the first place.
I think thats about it for the moment, but thanks for the great post Dan.

Good luck Hauffen,

Dom.

PS. Anyone wanna buy a nearly new Canon XHA1? ....LOL

Dan-

terrific assessment. I'm curious to know if any of the cameras you mention have "clearscan," which enables you to shoot off CRT's? I cna't find this fetaiure in any of the literature.

- Loren
Today's FCP 5 keytip:
Set Video Only In and Out with Control I or O !

The FCP KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

Excellent post Dan. It refreshing to hear a level headed production perspective on using these cameras showing that each of them are tools sometimes better suited to different kinds of production work. Hyperbole and boosterism only helps the manufacturers of the products being lauded.

Priceless info, Dan. It is great to hear someone's perspective after heavy use. If ever I had my doubts about the HVX...they are gone. I am a "short format / element shooting for compositing" guy. I, too, like the "soft look" and end up treating all my ftg in Magic Bullet in Post. I will be pushing for this camera for my department this summer.

Thanks for posting your experience, Dan.

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Dan has an excellent article on shooting with the HVX over at Ken Stone

Read it here

[www.kenstone.net]

Michael Horton
-------------------

Loren:

HVX has a syncroscan function to shoot CRT screens and monitors. I believe its in the scene file menu in camera mode.

Hi J:

It's like DV if you don't use P2? ;-)

Dan

Glad the input was helpful guys.

Yeesh, do people still use CRTs so you need the clearscan? I haven't used that feature in years. But I remember the days when.

The place I produce for has three HVX, one XL-H1 two Z1s. Nobody uses the Z1s anymore and hardly use the XL-H1 anymore unless it's for EPK because of the long lens. I bought my own HVX a few weeks ago, I REALLY dig this camcorder, it really adds a level of confidence and a feeling that you can make anything look better than you could with other cameras. I loved my DVX (still have it as a spare/backup) but the HVX is like the DVX on steroids. Wish I had the money for the HPX-500. Imagine the HVX with 2/3" chips, a real broadcast lens and about two or three times the low light ability of the HVX and it holds four P2 cards instead of 2 like the HVX. Now that is an amazing camcorder but $25k is above my means for a camcorder right now. Maybe if I can use my HVX to make enough money??

When I used to own my BVW-D600 back in the day, Panasonic wasn't making very great cameras. But my gosh how the times have changed. The Sonys are still decent but Panasonic really has their finger on user's pulse as far as giving us what we want.

Dan

It sure was helpful.
It looks like the HVX will top my wish list. BTW, I've had pretty decent results shooting CRTs with my humble GL-2 by using a slow shutter speed, something like 60/sec or 30/sec.
Thanks a lot, Dan.

Alberto

what would be a cheaper option than a P2 card or is that the only way to get hd from the hvx?

by the way when you say it dv with out, is it better dv than the dvx.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

Hi J:

No, you can also record HD with the HVX to a FireStore FS-100 although it's not really cheaper than a P2 card.

You can also record the HVX's HD output directly into Final Cut Pro via FireWire (usually with a laptop) so if you are doing studio-based or tripod based projects, this can work ALTHOUGH, the caveat is if your computer locks up or crashes, you lose everything. For most professional situations, this is unacceptable but if you are a hobbiest, or doing simple, small shoots that are repeatable in case you crash, it is a really cheap and easy way to record HD without P2 cards.

DV is DV. I would say that the HVX's DV recording might look just a tiny bit better than the DVX because the HVX has native 16:9 chips whereas the DVX has native 4:3 chips. You can also record HD on a P2 card with the HVX and then convert the HD down to DV tape within the camcorder, which is a very handy feature for those who don't have an HD capable system or monitoring. Or if you just want to shoot HD, then hand off a DV clone to friend if they are editing it, etc.

Realistically, to use the HVX the Panasonic intended, you need P2 cards. The FireStore is okay, but in my experience, inconsistent plus you are relying on a fragile four pin FireWire connector to go from the camera to the FireStore.

If you can afford an HVX, you can afford P2 cards. If you absolute ceiling is $5,000.00, you cannot afford an HVX, buy an HDV camera. The new Sony V1 is sweet for about $4,200.00 but then, eventually you will need an HDV deck. More $$$.

Dan

p2 is getting nothing but cheaper AND i've found that clients think its slick as hell!

people who use the cost of p2 as an argument against the hvx are pretty narrow thinkers in my book. as ive said before - if you take into account the time you save in traditional log and capture, the p2 workflow pays for itself in like 2 jobs!

i bought a fs100 a few weeks ago, just in case i have a shoot where i have to do individual takes longer than 2, 16 gig cards - im sure that will be VERY rare. but im sure it WILL happen. but so far it just sits in the case doing nothing...

xtra thanks Danny Boy.

i guess i better do it with the p2. i am starting to get into green screen stuff ( cars & people ).

i am doing my set up as we speak i figure the dvx will give me a decent key if lit correctly, but i saw the green screen that wayne had and i was impressed.

hey wayne the 16gig cards you have, how much time do you have on recording and what was the price for the 2 cards.

i am hoping that i can get the whole set up for 6500. is that possible?

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

i dont have any 16gig cards yet - i cant find them anywhere!

but i get about 16min of 720pn on an 8gig card. so id imagine that 2 16gig cards would give about an hour.

you can get an 8 gig p2 for about $650 these days. best price from an AUTHORIZED panasonic dealer for the camera is probably about $5000. so yeah. 2 8 gig cards and a camera for about $6300 and you'll have roughly 30 min of runtime between transfers.

do you have a device to dump the p2 cards to? the cheapest route is a laptop. i have an old 17" g4 powerbook that works great. and you can pick one of those up for under a grand. even and older smaller g4 would work for give or take $500ish...

wait a minute wayne you mean to tell me that i cant just fw out to capture in fcp? or cut from the cam itself as if it were a hard drive??

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"