EVS and FCP anyone?

We will be integrating one FCP station (the only one actually, the rest of the house is Avid w/Unity) at my work with an XT2 and IPDirector in about 5 weeks. Interested in hearing from folks who have experience with this.

Adelena-

I work on sports remotes with FCP and EVS/IP Director.
Contact me off list to chat.

-V
VPiccin(remove)@att.net

I've just been using it with Avid in SD - works brilliantly. Files are transferred about .2x real time (i.e. 5x faster than real time) and can be streamed in.

Unfortunately the version of Adrenaline that you have to use sucks (v2.2.10) big time.

Would be interesting to hear the discussion FCP-EVS onlist if possible.

Trevor

Trevor-

I have heard from the EVS folks here in the US that the Avid workflow works well. They had a demo of it set up in their booth at NAB.

Unfortuantly there are issues with FCP. As I understand it Apple is dragging their feet in working with EVS. It is possible to transcode via XFile and deposit the media on shared drives. You have to manually import to FCP. Transcode and transfer times depend on how much computer power you can throw at the process, but with just a standard XFile working in HD it is SLOW.

It is much faster to just playout of the EVS and recapture in FCP at this point.

How are things "over there" these days?

-Vance

V -
Things here are peachy. We're troubleshooting today. We have SD and HD footage in the box right now. We've got SD device control and now we're working on HD.
I guess we do have the server. We aren't using it because our avids work in omf HD not imx SD. So we'll probably set up a "landing pad" as you call it and see if we can get it to work. As I said, we're planning to boot the HD XT2 in SD IMX mode to get this thing running.
Now for audio monitoring...
Andre

So, I have access to both sides of our house (SD & HD) and things are running well. Was playing around with control of our XT2. Is there a device control profile that will allow instant access to timecode (as opposed to slowly rewinding like a tape machine?) I've tried the Kona Sony VTRA, B and IMX profiles but they all act the same.

Not that I am aware of in FCP. Using a Sony linear controller I have found constants that instant cue the EVS, so it is possilbe. I have not found the same for FCP.

-V

I don't think this will work, but it might be worth a try. I don't have acces to a system with RS 422 control right now, but looking on my laptop I found this.

Go to the Audio and Video Settings. Then to the Device control Tab. Duplicate and rename the Sony A profile. When you edit the dupe there is a check box for "Use Deck Search Mechanism". That may let the EVS do the cue.

Let me know if that works.

-Vance

To work with Avid in SD the XTs have to record MPEG50 (i.e. IMX). That's what we just used and it worked really well. We did also need Transfer Manager and Media Manager and couldn't run later versions than 2.2.10 on the Adrenaline, which is a pig. You need Interplay to swap files around with later versions of Avid.

In HD they set the XTs to record DnxHD. Slower transfers but it does, allegedly, work. The speed comes down to longer than the clip length, whereas in SD it is about 5 times quicker than the clip length.

On the 9100 the setting is 'macro cue' - Vance's suggestion may work, let us know.

V-
Nah, that doesn't work. The "Use Deck Search Mechanism" is checked by default on my box. I tried turning it off but it still rewinds.
A

I didn't think it would. I have tried to do this in the past and never found a way to make it cue quckly.

-V

Would changing the port settings on the EVS make any difference? I'm not at an XT right now but I've used the BVW9100 and the XT control settings. Are there others that might "play well" with FCP? This as opposed to changing the device control in FCP. I guess it's a "try it and see" type of thing.

Unfortunatly I don't think so. There are several control protacols on the XT for various types of connections. IPDP, BVW75, DD35, Odedics are the ones that come to mind. You can try other than BVW 75, but I wouldn't expect much. DD35, which is a switcher protocal MAY give you instant cue, but I am not holding my breath.

All the 6 ports are identical on the XT save number 1. That is the one that must have an LSM controller plugged in if you are using the box in LSM mode. If you are in IPDP mode, then it is the same as the others.

-V

I cut with an AvidXpress this week controlling the XT2 with Avid's BVW75 protocol. With "Fast Cue" off it cues instantly. I brought everything in baseband and it worked out really well. It's been crazy at work. I'm cutting on Avid for the next little while and then migrating the entire project to FCP. We're still fine tuning our workflow. I haven't had time to try changing the XT's port protocols and I don't think I will for a while (have any spare time that is.)

We have the equipment to send clips to Avid in SD and HD but we haven't quite worked it all out yet. I say "we" but it's mainly our engineer (he's a frickin' saint!) We're upgrading our IPDirector and XFile software as soon as possible. Apparently the software version we're using doesn't support export in Quicktime which is necessary for filesharing with FCP.

On a lighter note, our EVS rep reffered us to this forum (haha) when we asked him about FCP and EVS.

Check out www.pgatour.com. It's the PGA TOUR Today stuff. We shot, edited, compressed and uploaded everything for each episode in about 2.5 hours. This is what I'll be cutting on FCP soon. Suggestions for streamlining that workflow is what I'm thinking about right now.

Quote
adelena
Suggestions for streamlining that workflow is what I'm thinking about right now.

You might want to take a look at pictureready for the ability to be editing with a quicktime whilst it is still being recorded. Takes up another G5 per stream you want to record - but cheaper than XT2s. (Eventually Decklink and/or Kona will wake up to multiple streams per card.)

(They also make a product virtualvtr that enables RS422 control of that, or any other, quicktime, by say a BVE9100).

The big advantage of the EVS workflow, IMO, is that

a. they are a broadcast company, so the gear is robust and works
b. if you already have a bunch of production and technical personnel logging and clipping with IPDirector and XT2's then you have access to multiple clips from multiple feeds without managing multiple ingest stations.

Unfortunately I don't know that EVS and FCP are playing nicely - Vance would have more info on that. I can reiterate that it works well Avid - EVS at SD, I didn't use HD. Yet.

I took a look at what you are doing. Trevor has a good suggestion about Pictureready and Virtual VTR if you are excerpting from a limited number of feeds. I havn't used that specific product, but am aware of it. That way you can record the format you want to finish in and edit the QT movies on FCP directly.

As for support Quicktime with EVS. My understanding is a bit dated, but I should have more information this week. We are setting up for our tour and upgrading our IP Directors on our trucks tomorrow and Thursday.

The last I knew in order to produce QT movies you had to run a product called Media eXchange on an XFile that is networked to your XT2's and IPDirectors.

We looked at a product called B4M (Broadcast for Media) as well. I think the software is called FORK? It will let you clip and edit from a live video stream without halting your digitize. There is a 20sec latency though (not a big deal really.) It works with XSan and XServer. It all came down to the fact that we have the EVS, IPDir and XFile in house already. We decided that was the system we would try to leverage for this project.

I've just been turning on the digitize, shooting, stopping it and then editing the clip. That's plenty fast enough. We're not doing the show "straight to tape" or as if it were live. We are a two man band at this point. I also set up the set, run camera and do the compression.

I hadn't heard about Media eXchange. Looks like the next IPDir software version will take care of the need for such a program. Also, our budget is pretty much closed for the moment. We need to stick with the equipment that's already in house.

update -

FCP and EVS are working great. We have the file transfer bumpin' (as the kids say these days.) We're using an old G4 tower as our landing pad and a GigE switch. File transfers are respectably fast.

I've been using a program that came with our Mac called "Automator" to do the mundane fetching of files tasks. Then I import into FCP, rename, revert the file names and edit.

One question: I have three kinds of footage I'm working with - QTmovies created by our EVS in IMX50 mode, 525i 29.97 10bit (stuff I've digitized from tape) and stuff that comes via ftp from site (QT H.264.) The stuff from site has to be rendered on the timeline, and then rendered again if I change anything, grrr....Since it's only a few clips per day I've started importing them into FCP then exporting them as uncompressed 10bit and then re-importing them into my project.

I'll have a chance next week to change my workflow. It's been pointed out to me that I don't have to ingest from tape in 525i 10bit (I mean my finished product goes on the web, it's not for broadcast.) I don't think I can change the QTmovie that comes from the EVS but I may be able to get them to send me different QTmovies from site? What I'm asking is what file types can live on the timeline together without having to render (over and over) or import/export/import?

Andre

>>what file types can live on the timeline together without having to render (over and over) or import/export/import?
<<

That depends on a couple of factors. What version of FCP you're using, what kind of Mac you have, how much RAM you have and what you want to output.

I'm on FCP 6 on a fast computer and I can throw lots of different codecs in the timeline without the need to render all the time. However, H.264 is not an editing codec. It's a delivery codec designed to make files very small and still look good. That means there is lots of compression going on under the hood of the QT files.

What codec do you output for the web when finished?

However, H.264 is not an editing codec. It's a delivery codec designed to make files very small and still look good.

Wow, exactly the answer I was looking for. How rare is that, and on the first try?

After I posted today I used Compressor to re-compress (not sure if that's the right word, maybe transcode would be more appropriate here?) the files to uncompressed 10bit. I imported them into FCP and everything went swimmingly.

I'm finishing to a QT movie that gets compressed into a wmv and uploaded to our website.

Oh and I'm using FCP 6.0.1 on a QuadCore Mac, 4G of RAM, the latest Kona for I/O and heavy lifting with two internal media drives each 650G. The time to render isn't a problem it's just having to render every time I make an edit to one of these clips.

I think I'm going to radically re-think my workflow for next week. Maybe ingest from tape in IMX (so the EVS clips and tape clips match) and do the transcoding of ftp clips with Compressor (so FCP doesn't have to do it.) What do you think?

I think you have the right idea, moving everyting to a common codec. Jude is right, on a fast machine with FCP 6 you can mix codecs. Even still I find the fastest way to work is to have everything in the same codec on the timeline. With mixed codecs I stlll like to render everything before I output.

If most of your material is from the EVS at IMX 50 that is probably the right choice. The tape stuff should be pretty easy to capture. The stuff from location sounds like your sticking point. If the remote folks will change codecs for you that would be great. If not using compressor for the transcode is a good way to go. The nice thing about compressor is that you can do batches of files in the background while you contine to work with FCP. Look up the droplet function in the compressor documents. It is pretty cool. You can make an icon you put on your desktop or dock. It will let you just drag and drop your remote files onto the icon and start the transcode pretty quickly. I have never tried doing this directly from an FTP. I wonder if the relaxed pace of the data arriving on an internet connection would confuse it.

Another way to do the transcode in FCP using the batch export function. Then you can't continue to edit, tho.

I wish I could join you. Unfortunatly in my world the EVS guys are recording in the EVS HD MJPeg codec. FCP won't recognize it, and even EVS's own transcode product won't make me a useable quicktime. As a "guest" on our EVS network I can't ask for everyone else to change to a more FCP friendly Codec. I am going to be using a play out and recapture workflow for a while I think. My only other choice is to change to AVID, but that isn't going to happen either. I really am an FCP fan, but would gurdgingly make the switch to get the EVS workflow. I would have to probably kill the other editor on the show tho. He lives and dies in Motion, and that is no way I could sell him on a change.

-Vance

V-
Next year we go HD so this workflow may change completely then. I've only got three more weeks of playoffs (our last event is The TOUR Championship.) I'm not sure if I'm glad or sad? I won't have so much work but the pressure is what gets me learning, taking shortcuts, pushing myself to get better. We will be refining this show, doing more run throughs, maybe get some cool new graphics, etc...
They send me H-264 because it's coming over ftp and the files have to be as small as possible. This week we were lucky. The media center has T1 pipes out. Sometimes it's not so great though. When we did our tests a few weeks ago I think they said it took about a minute for each second of finished video to upload (yikes!) I'm going to try to stay with one codec for most stuff and create a droplet per your suggestion. I could do all of my own finishing and uploading if Compressor did wmvs. It's not just that though. They don't want my FCP box to touch the internet, I can understand.
We aren't doing any HD file transfers in our Adrenaline suites. We've heard it's easier and faster to just capture at baseband. To bad, we get cleans from site on hard drives every Monday plus the EVS melts with lots of great clips.
I'm slowly taking a real shine to FCP. It's a pretty decent workhorse (not as dandy as some have suggested.)
Andre