Another PAL Conversion Question - Cinema Tools

So I've learned now that the facility in India is using the PAL Pulldown (24 & 1) method for telecine on this feature that I'm starting in a couple of weeks. We are cutting in the US and finishing with a negative cut. I am confused by the manual about how Cinema Tools handles this method as opposed to the 24 @ 25 method, which simple speeds up the film 4%. It's clear that the conform feature slows down the 25 to 24, but it doesn't really say what happens, or what you should do when the facility is using the 24 & 1 method. Does anyone have experience with this?

Thanks!

I'd try to avoid this 24 & 1 method if at all possible. By playing the 24fps film at 25fps for a PAL telecine you avoid all issues with pulldown.

Graeme

personaly i find the terminology confusing,
but the method to use is:

SHOOT@ 24
TELECINE @ 25
CAPTURE @ 25
CONFROM to 24
EDIT @ 24

this is the way FCP works.
if you were cutting on some other system, (lightworks, i think) you could telecine at 24 fps.

im pretty sure FCP is simply not designed to work this way.
i'd be surprised if telecine houses in india which is a HUGE film making country could not cope with a telecine at 25fps.


"Conforming" in CT simply tels the clip to play slightly slower.
i think some bit of info in the file is changed from "play every frame for 1/25th of a second"
to "play every frame for 1/24th of a second"



nick

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately our telecine house does not do this type but rather the 24 & 1 pulldown method.

For anyone who's interested here's what I was told:

There are two pulldown methods when transferring 24 fps film to 25 fps Pal

A) 2:2 Pulldown - which simply speeds up the video by 4% (Apple calls this 24 @ 25)
B) 2^12:3 Pulldown - which displays 11 frames with 2
fields (same as above) - but on the 12th frame, displays 3 fields - making every 12 film frames essentially 12.5 frames. Thus every 24 frames becomes 25 frames. (Apple calls this 24 & 1)

My problem is that the Cinema Tools manual is very vague on how or if it can handle both types. I was hoping someone else had some direct experience with it...

If your telecine house does not handle a) 2:2 pulldown, or 24 @ 25, it might be time to get a new telecine house. Anything other than that will cause you immense headaches, frustration, time, money and pain.

Graeme

Got it! Thanks for the heads up.

Can they really not run the framerate through the telecine at 25?

I'd be very surprised if they can't unless they are using a really antiquated machine and that might be a big no-no as you are more likely to get dirt and scratches on older kit.

I am in agreement with Graeme, it might be a better idea to go with another TK house.

It will save you much more time/money in the immediate future and in the long term too.



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Though I'd been somehow a big fan of CT the PAL 24/25 issue has always been a bit odd.

It's quite easy as Nick stated. Here what I did all the time (finally without CT) and it always worked as Nick said:
SHOOT@ 24
TELECINE @ 25
CAPTURE @ 25
CONFROM to 24 - but do a real conform not the actual CT way
EDIT @ 24

- here the addition to Nick's suggestion
make a data base of all telecine reels with a start tc (and reel number), at the final cut you can go from there to 25 fps EDLs or 24 without problems and everything will match perfectly as you can convert the actual frame into a matching TC.

Regards
Andreas

a telecine house in a PAL country that cant run at 25fps?
that's is TOTALY BIZZARE!

maybe they are lying to you
i dont know why.
but either way it screams: get another facility!

(actually i can think of a reason for this scenario: they cant speed the audio up to sync it)

Quote

My problem is that the Cinema Tools manual is very vague on how or if it can handle both types. I was hoping someone else had some direct experience with it...

i don't think it DOES handle both types.
it handles 24@25.

as i mentioned i think it was only Lightworks that could cope with the "24+1" method, by dropping a field every 12 frames.


good luck with it all,
nick

Well I sent them an email about their methods and they are checking to see if they can do the 24@25. Sound is not the problem because we are telecining picture only and syncing in FCP.

Thanks!

i wouldn't be surprised if terminology was the sticking point here.

al you really need to ask them for is a telecine at 25fps
i'll bet it's the "24@25" that's freaking them out.

i live in a PAL country, and i'd never heard that term before i opened the Cinema Tools manual!


nick

I wish that was it! I was very specific about what each meant, not even using the Cinema Tools terminology. Still waiting for an answer from them...