Drive went south, now wha -- help!

Started editing a few days ago, the 1TB external firewire maxtor seems to have bitten the dust. I have a copy of the show on another drive, but it references the footage, which is on the Maxtor.

Is there a way I can re-capture the footage and have it magically appear in the timeline, since I have the timeline?

Any suggestions, short of just starting back from scratch?

The maxtor external isn't dead, just deadly slow. I tried copying the 90 gigs of footage over, and it says it will take 15 hours, going at a glacial rate, then chokes on a file and stops. Thanks for any ideas for what I can do here. I was planning to edit this weekend, but maybe it will just be trying to get back to where I was last night...

> I have a copy of the show on another drive, but it references the footage, which is on the
> Maxtor.

I assume you mean "a copy of the show" as in the project file, not the media.

> Is there a way I can re-capture the footage and have it magically appear in the timeline

If the files are gone and you didn't back it up, recapturing is your only option.

Never use Maxtors and Lacies.

> I tried copying the 90 gigs of footage over, and it says it will take 15 hours, going at a glacial
> rate,

Did you fill up the drive beyond 90 per cent full? That's a big no-no. That rule applies to any drive on the computer no matter whether you're using it for the project or not. Make sure every drive connected to your system is under 90 per cent full.

Did you format the drive properly before using? Off-the-shelf drives (Best Buy, Staples etc.) come as FAT32-formatted (PC). You shouldn't be using them until you reformat them as Apple OS Extended, an operation that will wipe all data off the drive.

I'd say get a quality drive -- avoid FireWire if possible -- trying to hook up another FireWire drive can push your other problematic drive over the edge. Copy the files over bit by bit. Or, if you have enough time and the master tapes, recapture to a properly configured drive.


www.derekmok.com

Thanks for the quick response. To answer your questions:

Yes, I have a copy of the project file, after disconnecting the problem drive, it shows the media is offline. So I guess I can recapture the 11 hours, giving the same file names, and then when I open the project I simply click "reconnect" and connect to the reels in the new location, and the show comes back online?

No, the drive wasn't 90% full, but only about 5% full, and it was formatted as Apple OS Extended.

Re: firewire 800 -- I thought this was the preferable drive to use? What do you recommend instead? I am not going to use the problematic drive any longer.

Guess I'll start recapturing the footage now. Thanks again.

FireWire 800 often doesn't play nice with FireWire 400. If you're using both, or mixing certain types of drives, often the data rate can slow down to far less than either drive alone. I know I have a FireWire 400 drive that slows down to a crawl if used with a FireWire 800 drive.

Thing is, in your case, recapture alone may not do the trick. You'll need to take that drive out of the equation. Also, there's a chance (not definite, but possible) that the 15-hour estimated copy time may be a smokescreen. Did you try leaving it copying overnight?

Of course, backup your project file and any other non-timecoded media first before you do anything. And stay away from Maxtors.


www.derekmok.com

The drive seems to be totally dead now, doesn't come up at all. I was able to move smaller files from it, slowly, but anything big, I got an error message that it had a problem, and stopped. Shows a problem with the file after about a gig of transfer, which took a half hour.

You said that recapture alone may not do the trick. Why no? Won't I be able to somehow import the recaptured footage into the project? It's on a different drive and I am giving each reel the same name I used when capturing it initially, and so I'm hoping I can just assign that file to be the missing file. Will that work? The timecode should be identical and the newly captured stuff therefore lines up in the timeline, no?

And what do you recommend instead of FireWire 800 drives? A friend of mine who edits for Fox recommends the G-Raid firewire 800, says that's what they use at work and beat on hard, and they stand up. I need to get a good backup system going here. Thanks.

> You said that recapture alone may not do the trick. Why no?

I just meant that you also have to replace the drive. Recapturing back into it won't help. Probably a moot point by now, though.

> I am giving each reel the same name I used when capturing it initially

You may be doing something wrong. You should not be redoing the logging; you should just be capturing using the same offline clips you were using for the edit. That way you will be able to reconnect the edits to the media file, which would be identical to the one you had initially used to create the edit.

> A friend of mine who edits for Fox recommends the G-Raid firewire 80

G-Technology is fine, Promax is fine, Seagate is fine. CalDigit is one name that comes up very often in here these days, though I can't vouch for the brand myself because I haven't used it. But many others have, and they've given glowing reports.


www.derekmok.com

Aha! Okay, you wrote:

Quote
derekmok
You may be doing something wrong. You should not be redoing the logging; you should just be capturing using the same offline clips you were using for the edit. That way you will be able to reconnect the edits to the media file, which would be identical to the one you had initially used to create the edit.

So I should NOT just recapture the files? How do I "capture using the same offline clips you were using for the edit."

How do I do that? Thanks.

> So I should NOT just recapture the files?

No, no, no...you're not understanding the terminology.

Logging:
When you go through the tapes and enter In and Out points for clips. The resulting items are called "offline clips" or "logs".

Capturing:
When you use those logs/offline clips to automate a process by which FCP goes through the tapes and encodes the images on the tape into media files.

Clips going offline:
When the media files go missing, the "logs" -- information about where a clip is on a tape -- remain.

Recapturing:
Using those offline clips/logs to go through the tapes again and encode those exact same media files you made when capturing in the first place. You are NOT re-entering the timecode information, reel name etc. -- the information is already there when you logged in the beginning of the project.

You are not RELOGGING. You are RECAPTURING. RELOGGING means you're going through the tapes and going In, Out, Log Clip again. If logging was done properly in the beginning, there is almost never any need to RELOG.

There might be some gaps in your basic FCP knowledge. Plugging those can help prevent meltdowns like these.


www.derekmok.com

Thanks for the lesson in terminology, Derek. I'm recapturing the reels as I write, about 10 hours to go.

I think the meltdown to prevent will be to have a raid backup system for my footage, in the form of a few G-raid 1TB drives. Otherwise, I'm sticking to what works best -- shoot, edit, cash the check.

Cheers and thanks again for your help.

Hey Derek: One more question. When I originally captured these reels, I just started it running and hit "capture now." So the clip started just a few seconds into the reel. When I got back on some of these to recapture, there doesnt' seem to be enough pre-roll that the system wants. It rolls it back before 0:00:00 and then stalls, never rolls to start recapturing.

Any suggestions for how I can recapture and keep the previous logging so I can substitute it into the missing reels? Know what I'm asking?

Thanks.

> One more question. When I originally captured these reels, I just started it running and hit
> "capture now."
> So the clip started just a few seconds into the reel.

Kaboom. That's another no-no. Using Capture Now means that the clips are not guaranteed to recapture. Some people here use that method, but then they'd backup the clips to multiple locations.

In those cases, you'll have to use Capture Now again. The resulting clip most likely will not reconnect properly with the offline clip. So what you'll need to do is use Capture Now and name the clip something different. Then use the offline clip as a guide for conforming the new clip -- basically re-creating the editing decision. Offline clips should retain their timecode information, so use those to determine the In/Out points.

Never use Capture Now unless you have no choice. And never start the In point of a clip less than five seconds after the very beginning of a tape or a timecode break.


www.derekmok.com

More lessons learned (the hard way). Thanks, Derek.

So even using capture now again, there's no way to automate any of this or to try to substitute the new clip into the old, right?

I still don't reckon this is true. As long as you weren't on non-controllable device, FCP should have picked up the timecode. Stuff right at the head of the tape is a big no-no though. Always put in at least 30 seconds of bars or black to get the nasty ends out of the way and to allow room for preroll.

If you skip the first one at the head of the tape, can you capture the others?

Thanks, Jude. None of the takes I'm using in the show are at or near the head of the tape. If there were a way just to capture the clips in my timeline and get those, that would be helpful. I guess my problem is that I did a "capture now" for the full tapes, and even though my selected takes are nowhere near the head of the tape, I can't recapture because it wants 5 seconds of pre-roll before it starts, and I don't have that since the capture starts only 2 or 3 seconds into each tape.

> As long as you weren't on non-controllable device, FCP should have picked up the timecode.

Yes, but there's no way to guarantee the possibility of batch recapture. Which means editing decisions aren't ironclad. Which is, to me, the #1 priority of editing prep work -- preserving decisions. Capture Now without file backups is like changing film rolls without a tent -- you're not sure to suffer, but it's likely enough to be a bad method.


www.derekmok.com

[Never use Maxtors and Lacies. ]

Derek, I'm lowering the boom on you here. Maxtors, maybe. But somebody out there has had a decent experience with those too, I am sure!

Common sense in mounting and dismounting, and in hooking up LaCie's to an UPS and not the wall, have given me years of reliable service, even when they switched from Quantum's to Western Digital. Two drives over the past decade went south, one in a lightning storm-- it was plugged into wall. The other, early LaCie FW400 in a wide blue and grey plastic case-- chipsets were crap. They upgraded them. I still use two of those oldtimers without issue. Today, I have a rack of over dozen D2 design LaCie's ranging form 120GB FW400 to 320 GB FW800/eSATA and I use them carefully.

I took simple precautionary steps outlined above, along with DiskWarrior and the 90% rule you indicate above-- which also affect SCSI drives on Avids and Seagate drives on Premiere Pro, and any other damn external FW.

Derek, you've become a force of nature here at LAFCPUG and I've learned from your experience as from many others, but I suggest you downpedal on generalities like that. Your mileage obviously varies. That's valid, you can report that and someone else as credible can even chime in. But it ain't the whole picture and "never never" leaves out decent products and design at good prices, treated carefully.

I do not work for LaCie.

[Did you format the drive properly before using? Off-the-shelf drives (Best Buy, Staples etc.) come as FAT32-formatted (PC). You shouldn't be using them until you reformat them as Apple OS Extended, an operation that will wipe all data off the drive. ]

But commonly, Derek, drives from these stores ARE Maxtor, LaCie, Western Digital, Seagate. So again, try to get the message straight. It has less to do with drive brands, more to do with precaution such as those I've outlined, spiced only by the occasional lame bridge chipset, manufacturing defect or lightning strike.

I can report I use *only* LaCie drives for my DV/DVCAM work, and have for many moons. I a comfortable with 'em. I hammered one pretty hard on the recent Boston 48-hour film project. Nary a whimper. Although I will probably try CalDigit for eSATA when the time comes.

- Loren
Today's FCP keytip:

Set your customized window layout 1 or 2 by holding Option then click
Window menu>Arrange>and select Set Custom Layout 1 or 2 !

Then use Custom Layout 1 or 2 with Shift-U or Option-U !

Final Cut Studio 2 KeyGuide? Power Pack.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

>>no way to guarantee the possibility of batch recapture.<<

I don't really understand this, though. If FCP knows what the timecode is, then why shouldn't it be able to batch?

Jeff - try using media manager to recapture just the clips you've used.

And, for the record, I don't like LaCies either. I'm up to six drives from six different users all dead. OK, yes, I did kill the last one by dragging it off the desk onto the floor after snagging the powercord with my chair, so that probably doesn't count. Doh!

> Jeff - try using media manager to recapture just the clips you've used.

Thanks, Jude. Trying to figure out how to do that now... I only see the full capture of the reel in the browser, not the individual clips in the timeline. Guess I need to spend some time with the manual tonight.

> If FCP knows what the timecode is, then why shouldn't it be able to batch?

Because Capture Now ignores many things that a Batch Capture is more finicky about. Timecode breaks, pre-roll and post-roll, for example. Also, timecode drifts are more likely, because people who use Capture Now as the rule rather than the exception are also more prone to capturing a whole tape as one clip. You tell me, which is more likely: Sync and timecodes drifting near the end of an hour-long capture, or sync and timecodes drifting near the end of a five-minute capture?

> Derek, I'm lowering the boom on you here. Maxtors, maybe. But somebody out there has had > a decent experience with those too, I am sure!

Of course, some people will have fewer problems with Lacies than others. But in my own experience, it's with one particular company based in the south that I've had to deal with Maxtors and Lacies (they're a bit shortsighted and don't buy great equipment, despite repeated pleas from me). Lacies actually had a higher failure rate than Maxtors, despite Lacie drives using Maxtor disks inside.

In my experience, Lacies have about 50 per cent failure rate over a standard long-term project I do (two to four months). And bear in mind that I'm still using an eight-year-old Promax, so I seriously doubt I have major bad habits that are causing the malfunctions. But even a drive with 50 per cent failure rate is going to have half its users not experience problems. Doesn't make it a good piece of equipment, or a good investment. Just because some people survive drinking kitchen cleanser doesn't make it a tasty healthy beverage.

> but I suggest you downpedal on generalities like that. Your mileage obviously varies. That's
> valid, you can report that and someone else as credible can even chime in. But it ain't the
> whole picture and "never never" leaves out decent products and design at good prices, treated
> carefully.

On the contrary, I'm not holding my punches. Because this is a forum with multiple members. For every post I write trashing Maxtors and Lacies -- and I'm not the only one -- you're certainly welcome to write a glowing review of them, if that's what your experience is. Readers of the forum will go away with these differing points and make their own decision.

I don't know why you feel offended by my negative reviews of those drives, Loren...if you had a good experience, say so. If you bought some Promax drives that went boom on you for no reason, by all means write about it -- Promax users (including myself) would appreciate it. I've had tremendously bad experiences with Maxtors and Lacies and I'm not going to shut up about them. If only for the reason that negative, experience-supported feedback may get them to improve their products. Just a year ago, a six-month-old 1TB Lacie wouldn't mount...after having been used on only one project about four months prior. So the damn thing couldn't even be left on a shelf and be expected to stay healthy.

Generalizations are often just that because they are true.


www.derekmok.com

Yeah, I can see where that would be possible, but if you're reconstructing from individual clips, I don't think it would be that crazy. I've had guys before who had almost no idea what they were doing, who cut a whole bunch of stuff captured 'now' who then threw away all their media to make space.

We just batched the lot back in and re-rendered. All done in no time.

Maybe I need to do more tests, though. And I don't recommend throwing away all your media even if you didn't capture 'now'!

> Maybe I need to do more tests, though. And I don't recommend throwing away all your media
> even if you didn't capture 'now'!

The problem isn't just in Capture Now, it's in people not understanding FCP basics. SHIFT-D (Make Offline) can wreak havoc on a project as well if you don't use it properly!

My argument has always been that you save so little time with Capture Now that it's just not worth it for me. Speed-logging is much better for me. Not to mention that if Capture Now tanks 99 per cent into a one-hour capture, you get nothing for an hour's waiting.


www.derekmok.com

Just two cents about Drives -- Agree the Maxtors are the worse (every one I've bought (3) have failed) The 1 western digital I bought at Comp USA also bad - crashed never to breath again.

LaCie -only experience has been with their small firewire powered pocket drives -- all have been rock solid for on the road editing - Andy

I've gotta defend Derek here. I think his opinion of LaCie drives is accurate.

Three years ago we bought a whole fleet of LaCie's: 1 Tb, 250's, 500's. At least a dozen drives.

Most of them are now dead! Especially the 1 TB's. They puttered out like a middle aged couch potato running a marathon... never made it to the finish line. Since these drives were used primarily as back up, they really didn't get hard, extensive use, but they still died.

This is not a sweeping generalization. It's an observation based on fact. There's too many corroborating stories about LaCie on this and other boards around the 'net to discount the negative opinion.

mark

Thanks again to all who've helped out.

I am having an issue using Capture Now on the same reels. I decided just to do that and try some of the suggestions I've gotten for using that, or else just do a manual re-do and then have to move forward and do the rest of the show.

The problem is when I do a capture now, it comes to the end of the reel, the deck stops, but FCP is frozen, with the last frame there and it says it's still capturing. I hit ESC several times over several minutes, but no dice. Finally after about 10 minutes, I do a force quit. In every case but once, there is nothing that has been captured. (In one case, it did capture the hour, even though I was unable to esc out of the capture window and had to force quit.)

I just captured these same 11 hours on Wed with no issues, just let it capture now, it comes to the end of the reel, FCP says it's reach the end or a timecode break, and everything up to that point is saved. But now that's not happening.

I had trashed FCP preferences when trying to figure out what the prob was on Friday (hard drive failure). Don't know why it won't properly end at the end of the reel...and I've lost an hour (as Derek pointed out being another reason not to use capture now). Thanks.

Hey Derek

You're saying that Capture Now may cause TC drifting.
Could that be part of the answer to my earlier posting (synching problem)?
We are using Capture Now because they are so many TC break in the tape (5 to 20) that it would take a long time to log.
Maybe it wouldn't take longer than the actual time it's taking right now. It's taking between 60 to 90 minutes to digitize a 40 min tape.(because FCP has a hard time locating the new TC after a break)
ANy suggestions?

> You're saying that Capture Now may cause TC drifting.

It's more likely than Batch Capture...but then again, if you were to log a 60-minute clip and then used Batch Capture, it'd probably also increase the chances of inaccurate timecode or sync near the end of the clip. This is why I always keep my clips to 10-15 minutes, 20 tops.

From your descriptions, it seems to me you might have a different issue -- dirty camera or deck head? Bad tape stock? Problems with the camera while recording?

> when I do a capture now, it comes to the end of the reel, the deck stops, but FCP is frozen,
> with the last frame there and it says it's still capturing

Aie-ie-ie. You're not supposed to capture the last second or two of tape, either. That's why there's also such a thing called "post-roll". After you're nearing the end of a tape, you're supposed to record some colour bars at the end where possible. Where not impossible, you forfeit the last second or so. You can't hit an Out point too close to the end of timecode, either.


www.derekmok.com

> when I do a capture now, it comes to the end of the reel, the deck stops, but FCP is frozen,
> with the last frame there and it says it's still capturing

Quote
Derek
Aie-ie-ie. You're not supposed to capture the last second or two of tape, either. That's why there's also such a thing called "post-roll". After you're nearing the end of a tape, you're supposed to record some colour bars at the end where possible. Where not impossible, you forfeit the last second or so. You can't hit an Out point too close to the end of timecode, either.

More education...thanks again, Derek.

One thing that seems to be working for me on this initial problem -- I capture the reel (or most of it) using capture now, then link the new clip to the offline clip (which I originally captured using capture now).

When I do this, of course it tells me that the in/out don't agree, but I go ahead and link the new clip anyway. Presto chango, it's lining up fine the shots from that reel into the timeline, and the timecode seems to be perfect. (The one I recaptured using media manager was out of synch, but when I just capture it all and substitute it, I'm having some luck.)

Maybe the FCP gods decided to smile on me a bit here after all...despite my many missteps. :-)

hey, jeff. have you tried putting the "southbound" drive mechanism itself into another enclosure? you may be having a power supply problem.

here is some general advice.
ALWAYS:

- pre-roll in-camera at least 30 sec on every new tape and at least a few seconds before every shot
- log your clips! as derek said, you dont save much using "capture now" and what you gain in insurance via logging MORE than makes up for the extra time.

here is another kudos for caldigit. i have two of their SVR DUO's and their performance AND customer service is second to none.

Hey Jeff -


Here's another vote against Maxtor. My client sent me a 1 TB Maxtor drive to copy footage from, and it stone cold died.

Same client had a 1 TB LaCie drive fail the first week I worked with them.

The G-Tech drives that they bought on my recommendation haven't so much as hiccuped.

Jeff

Jeff,

Here's a bit of experience, might help: the symptoms you are describing (slow, stuttering perfomance) are typical of bad firewire connections and/or cables.

A faulty or defective power brick (are you using the one that came with the unit?) will cause similar problems. Most commonly, the disk will unmount itself intermittently for no apparent reason.

Did you check and clean all your connections and swap out the firewire cable for a new one?

It's usually not the drives themselves (no matter what brand) but either the way they're connected or general handling (heat, dust, moisture, etc.) that causes failures.

hth,
Clay