HDV vs AVCHD vs P2 DVCPro HD

Okay... Think I kinda found a workaround for an offline/online workflow with tapeless formats... Trick is to L&T to get it to ProRes to get the unique clip IDs, then use the Batch Export function to transcode to your offline codec (MM recompress doesn't work here, don't know why), then delete the ProRes files and "reconnect" to your DvcproHD or DV or whatever offline codec you're using, but keep the original source file (the AvcHD)... and when you online it, you should be able to trim with MM and do a batch capture (just like normal offline/online workflows) which will then launch the L&T window.

Seems to work with P2 (tried part of the workflow on dvcproHD), not sure about the other formats.



www.strypesinpost.com

>Trick is to L&T to get it to ProRes to get the unique clip IDs, then use the Batch Export function to transcode to your offline codec (MM recompress doesn't work here, don't know why)

I don't know why that doesn't work for you because it totally works for me. I even wrote an article in last years SUPERMEET mag about this. Worked fine.

>and when you online it, you should be able to trim with MM and do a batch capture (just like normal offline/online workflows)

SHOULD? Have you TRIED? Because the RED White Paper which goes into the offline/online workflow doesn't have you do this. You need to recapture EVERYTHING that you use in the cut...the full clip. When you use the MAKE OFFLINE option, it specifically says to turn off DELETE UNUSED MEDIA. Because FCP cannot extract footage from within longer clips. Not yet anyway. Trust me, I have tried...looking for a viable offline/online tapeless workflow.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Recompressing with MM brings up the L&C instead of the L&T tool when I try to batch capture the clip in FCP. I'm on FCP 6.0.3 and am in the middle of a project, so no upgrades... But with the L&C window popping up, no way can I run batch captures off P2 clips. However, batch export works here. Keeps timecode, reel name, etc...

Read your article. Was about cutting on the move, but wasn't really offline/online where you recapture the source.

>Have you TRIED?

Yea, a while ago to test trimming functions with MM, and just did it to test offline/online (which I've not yet used for a project or found the need to)...

Just ran the works... L&T-ed a 5 second long DvcproHD 720p clip, batch exported it to DV Pal onto a folder in desktop, deleted DvcproHD clip from Capture scratch, reconnected to DV PAL clip, dropped that on a timeline, trimmed 2 seconds off front and back of clip in the sequence, Right click MM, copy, delete unused media, make new project... Launched MM-ed project, right click, batch capture, L&T tool pops up, recapture... Double checked media... And presto.. I just trimmed a 42.3 MB clip into a 23.3 MB DV clip into a 13.9 MB clip recaptured DvcproHD with L&T and the offline/online workflow in DV... Duration of clip 00:01:21 on both clips.

Works on P2 for me.



www.strypesinpost.com

OK, my 2 cents.

I want to hit on something Shane suggested earlier and that's using a Firestore to record DVCProHD. One of the HUGE pluses of the Firestore to me is that not only does it allow you to shoot for HOURS (approx 4hrs straight in 720P24pn on the FS100) but you also have the option of recording straight to Quicktime! P2 is great if you know there's a possibility that you may be cutting on different NLE's, but if you KNOW you're going straight to FCP, then why not shoot straight to Quicktime? I don't even use P2 cards with my HVX anymore. Frankly, it's not worth the hassle (and that's really saying something because P2 still offers a great tapeless workflow option). But I can simply drag & drop my Quicktime files from my Firestore to my drive and pull those clips directly into FCP. Edit. Done. I don't have to worry about "Logging and Transferring" my P2 files and "wrapping" them in Quicktime. It's already done! I can even instantly review my footage directly on my computer from the Firestore (without having to use some third party solution like P2 Viewer) through Quicktime.

I know some people are concerned about the Firewire cable that runs from the camera to the Firestore, but it has never been a problem for me. And if it is that much of a concern for you, 3M offers a revolutionary hi-tech solution for this. It's called tape!

And as far as durability, I've dropped, shaken, and rattled mine on dozens of occasions (practically every shoot) and never lost any footage. Not once. Is there still a risk? Of course! It's a Hard Drive! But all I can give is my personal experience.

So I would suggest looking into getting one, maybe two Firestores as an option, verses several P2 cards. I've on a couple of occasions had to shoot events that ran for over 8 hours straight (one was actually 12+) and I was able to record on one Firestore, once it reached near capacity switched it out for a second and then dumped while I was recording with the fresh one. All Quicktime, seamless, worked perfectly. And didn't have to go through the whole log and transfer process before I could start editing (don't get me wrong, I do like how the log and transfer process works in FCP, just why use it if I really don't need to and some projects really don't require it).

Okay, it was more like $1.52 than 2 cents, but I hope it helps as another potential option.

Steven Gladney

Sometimes the obvious is hidden in plain view.

Aha! More feed for the fire. Thanks. I was reviewing these posts earlier and realized I'd kinda skimmed over the Firestore suggestion, investigated it, got stopped with the price tag... but now that I've been told more will revisit.

I've never used Log and Transfer, having always worked with tape. Does it provide a lot more necessary information for your clips than straight import?

The offline/online stuff sounds very cool... but a bit scary/risky to me. Media Manager gives me the willies.

Still wondering how terrible HDV really is for editing and capture.

Thanks!

its not terrible at all. Its just fine. People make way to big a deal over it. If you want just convert to pro res at the start and get on with life. Or do it at the end. Easy.

Michael Horton
-------------------

Good to hear, Michael.

Re: the Firestore - after some reading I think that given the amount of run and gun we'll be doing, using wireless mics, it might not be the best option for us. But thanks so much for the suggestion - another potential addition to the toolset.

Firestore is pretty simple and efficient to use, but i believe it costs more than P2.

I don't believe HDV is hard to work with today, just that the picture quality isn't really super. XDCAM EX formats are much better quality.

Haven't heard of anyone using the offline/online workflow with tapeless formats yet. I just found out the day before that it was possible in FCP. Offline/Online is fairly common with tape, a lot more common on Avids. But you should run more elaborate tests before deciding on using it for your workflow.



www.strypesinpost.com

Quote
I don't believe HDV is hard to work with today, just that the picture quality isn't really super. XDCAM EX formats are much better quality.

One would have to have a very compelling reason to use HDV. Consider that with JVC's HM100 you can now get XDCAM EX for under $4000 list. With 16GB SDHC cards (57 minute record time) as low as $30 one could even save the cards if there's a budget for it. On the other hand two 32GB SDHC cards (at $150 each) will give you nearly 4 hours of record time and transfer speeds of 2-4 times faster than real time.

I can't see a reason to invest in HDV, not cost, not time efficient, not a good codec.

To me it would come down to XDCAM EX vs AVCHD and I think EX is a more time efficient codec to work with. AVCHD is not less expensive when you consider the extra time it takes. And if everyone is working for free it's actually that much worse because you'd be forcing people to work more hours without pay or slowing the progress of your project.

It may change when more NLEs can work with AVCHD natively but that day hasn't arrived yet for most NLEs. It's transcode (more time) and more storage space (more money).

Quote
Haven't heard of anyone using the offline/online workflow with tapeless formats yet.

Certainly XDCAM discs and proxy files is common but that's another budget. The issue with offline/online is file association. I've heard that some people say the UMID (metadata file ID) can be carried across in some cases but I haven't tested this.

Hi all!

I´m also trying to find a solution for a upcoming project. I think there is no perfect workflow of ingesting AVCHD into AVID or FCP but here is my Idea: The materials we shoot have to be available in both systems (AVID/FCP) at the same time. So I was thinking of converting the AVCHD files using the free mainconcept tool to P2 DVCpro HD. Editing MXF in AVID is not a problem and with mxf4mac you should be able to do the editing in FCP to. Cost effective archiving and backup can be done with LTO4 (800/1600GB per LTO tape {It´s strange trying to find a tapeless workflow and in the end, you archive to tape...}).
Testing this workflow is on my agenda for the next two or three weeks, did anyone try this already? Any experiance with MXF4mac?