iMac (which one?) or Mac Pro for Large (SD) Archiving Project

Hi,

A close friend in India is going to purchase a Mac and Final Cut Studio. He doesn't have much video knowledge or experience. He has about 300 or 400 hours of footage, mostly lectures. The footage is VHS/SVHS. Getting the best quality possible is a high priority.

He plans to:
1. Capture to DV25 (using a Canopus ADVC300).

2. Do a little simple editing. Its about 95% edited as is (already released on VHS [without color correction]).

3. Do some simple color correction. A lot of the footage could be substantially better with simple corrections to exposure and color . In general the footage is pretty consistent (long periods of almost identical footage) except for closeups. When the camera zooms in or out the exposure frequently changes. He might be best served by using FCP 3-way but he is considering using Color.

4. Tweak/clean-up the audio.

5. Create a simple DVD for each lecture (normally about 60 minutes each). Probably just a Title Page plus a chapter stop every 5 minutes.

6. Save a copy of the completed DV25 on hard drive or Blue-Ray disc.

He is planning to use a Sony PVM-1444QM (14" CRT monitor for viewing the footage.

I think for either an iMac or Mac Pro I think he should use external FW drives. Even with a Mac Pro I think archiving will be easier. Disagree?

I like the WiebeTech Trayless enclosures (RTX100-Q).

The following are the configurations he sent me:

Quote

There are quite a few distributors of Apple Computer along with Final Cut Studio. I spoke to some of them. They recommended I MAC with Core Duo and 4 GB Ram considering our purpose. These are the configurations recommended by the vendor we plan to use:

Either:
I Mac with Inter 2.4 Core two Duo with 1TB Hard Disk (added) 4 GB RAM ati 128 MB 2600 with video output of 20" (for a price of Rs.74,000 - US $1600)

Or:
I Mac with Inter 2.8 Core two Duo with 1TB Hard Disk (added) 4 GB RAM ati 256 MB 2600 with video output of 24" (for a price of Rs.94,000 - US $2000)

The price difference between the two models is quite a lot - a MAC PRO would cost about Rs.140,000 (US $3000).

According to him if we take I Mac we will be in a position to connect the computer to any Sony television to see and make color correction.

With regard to Mac Pro he feels that
1. we don't need it considering our purpose,
2. The CPU and RAM recommended in I Mac is good enough to handle the load,
3. the I MAC is going to be slower than Mac Pro and hence processing will take some extra time (few seconds),
4. Mac Pro machine does require AC environment in India which is not necessary for I Mac

Between the 2 iMac's the 24" screen, faster processor and better graphics card for an additional $400 is a slam dunk?

Should he spend about an extra $1,000 for a Mac Pro?

If so why?

If he gets a Mac Pro is this a good choice? The lowest end CPU with a $200 upgrade to the ATI Graphics Card?:
Base CPU: One 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
ATI GPU Instead of Nvidia: ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB [Add $200.00]

For the Mac Pro I think he should use third party RAM. I'd suggest OWC.

Thanks!

Mitch

Hi, Mitch.

i work on an iMac, and i think they rock!
they are more than fast enough for the work i do,
and would be great for your friend.

just so you know, the "work i do" is offline editing,
cutting DV, HDV, or ProRes,
but mainly DV on the last 2 films, which were both features.

iMacs are fast, powerfull, and CONVENIENT.
i have packed mine into it's box and taken it interstate with me quite a few times.

i have a 24" iMac and use a second 17" monitor for my FCP Browser & Bins.
you'd be crazy NOT to get the 24"


as to your friend's project...

you say "best quality", but quality would be compromised a bit by working in DV.
how much that would be noticeable on top of the existing poor quality of VHS, i couldn't say.
you would get (slightly) better quality by captureing to Prores,
which would mean more expensive gear.

the main arguiment AGAINST an iMac is the improved in-out capabiloties of a MacPro,
and believe it or not, even a MacBook, compared to an iMac.

with a Mac Pro, you could get a very cheap capture card to capture the VHS as ProRes (Blackmagic Intensity Pro)

with a MacBook, you could get a Matrox MXO2 or possibly the AJA io Express, but that has less options

the only way to get VHS into an iMac as ProRes would be an AJA io HD or the Motu V4HD,
which are both kind of overkill.



if you decide to go iMac & DV, then i would recommend doing the CC & Titling work in a Prores timeline.

i would also suggest that the VHS isn't captured directly into the computer.
even in this file-based age, i think it's safest to dump the VHS to DV tape,
then capture.
if something goes wrong, then the tape is always there,
and the tape will be a lot better for archive purposes.


Grading:
grading in FCP will probably be quite sufficient,
and "Color" might be a bit difficult to master,
but that's just me talking!

for VHS you might also want to look at Graeme Nattress's De-Noise plugins for FCP and/or Color



nick

Hi Nick,

Quote

you say "best quality", but quality would be compromised a bit by working in DV.
how much that would be noticeable on top of the existing poor quality of VHS, i couldn't say.
you would get (slightly) better quality by capturing to Prores,
which would mean more expensive gear.

Thanks for the advice. I don't think he'll lose very much on the capture and editing. Probably a little on the Color Correction. Also a small hit on the mpeg2 compression. I already went through this with him. I think he's going to stick with DV but I'll convey your suggestions. Thanks!

Quote

if you decide to go iMac & DV, then i would recommend doing the CC & Titling work in a Prores timeline.

I think he might be planning to only add titles to the DVD Menu.

Quote

iMacs are fast, powerfull, and CONVENIENT.

i work on an iMac, and i think they rock!
they are more than fast enough for the work i do,
and would be great for your friend.

First question answered. Fast enough and powerful enough for FCP and Color (if necessary).

Quote

i have a 24" iMac and use a second 17" monitor for my FCP Browser & Bins.

Second question answered. He can use a second monitor with the iMac.

I just checked the iMac configuration. One hard drive and:

Quote

# One FireWire 800 port (up to 800 Mbps)
# Four USB 2.0 ports (up to 480 Mbps)
# Mini DisplayPort video out

Is one FireWire port sufficient? He will be using the Canopus for Capture and display on the Sony PVM. I think this means he will either need to capture and edit from the internal hard drive or a USB drive.

Will capturing and editing on the boot drive (separate partition) work reliably?

Will capturing and editing on a USB drive work reliably?

Quote

# NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 256MB
# NVIDIA GeForce GT 130 512MB [Add $150.00]
# ATI Radeon HD 4850 512MB [Add $200.00]

I assume the 512MB Graphics card is a good idea. Nvidia or ATI?

Thanks Again !

Mitch

Hi Mitch

Quote

I don't think he'll lose very much on the capture and editing. Probably a little on the Color Correction.

a little bit less if he CCs in a ProRes timeline, i'm guessing.

Quote

First question answered. Fast enough and powerful enough for FCP and Color (if necessary).

i cant vouch for Color, but i believe it CAN work on an iMac.
the main sacrifice would be SPEED,
and this includes live playback of graded material.
my guess is this might be ok for this project.

Quote

Is one FireWire port sufficient? He will be using the Canopus for Capture and display on the Sony PVM. I think this means he will either need to capture and edit from the internal hard drive or a USB drive

Yes is is sufficient.
and the good news is you can (and should) stick with Firewire drives.

[flame suit on]
i have been working on my iMac for a year now.
for capturing and playing back i simply diasy chain the camera or deck off one of my drives.
(a hub wont be any better, probably cause more problems, and it'll just break eventually)

USB drives are not so good with video, so they say.
it *might* work, but it's a problem waiting to happen.
best to stick with FW.

Quote

Will capturing and editing on the boot drive (separate partition) work reliably?

yes, UP TO A POINT, but it's not a great idea.
working EXCLUSIVELY on the internal will fill it up, fast.
renders exports, etc, etc.
when it gets too full, the whole system will choke.

look for an external solution.

Quote

I assume the 512MB Graphics card is a good idea. Nvidia or ATI?

FCP and Color increasingly rely on the graphics card to do their work
get the best Graphics card on offer,
(especially if it's only a matter of 50$!)

Quote

anything else?

OK, you didn't ask that, i did

one more suggestion: if the process DOESNT involve recording to DV, then capturing,
then i'd suggest that there should be SOME form of redundancy.

a second FW drive, with a complete backup of the captured media is kind of essential.

your pal got to this stage because he still has those VHS tapes.
tapes still last a whole lot longer than drives do,
so start backing up now!

Quote
Mitch
I assume the 512MB Graphics card is a good idea. Nvidia or ATI?

Quote
Nick Meyers
FCP and Color increasingly rely on the graphics card to do their work
get the best Graphics card on offer, (especially if it's only a matter of 50$!)

Its not the $50. The question is which is the better card. ATI or Nvidia? On the early Mac Pro's ATI Cards performed much better with Color than more powerful Nvidia Cards. Based on that I was going to recommend the ATI but thought I should check first.

Quote
Nick Meyers
for VHS you might also want to look at Graeme Nattress's De-Noise plugins for FCP and/or Color

Good idea, thanks!

Quote
Nick Meyers
grading in FCP will probably be quite sufficient,
and "Color" might be a bit difficult to master,
but that's just me talking!

I agree but the advantage of Color for his project is it has cleaner renders according to Walter Biscardi.

Quote
Nick Meyers
i cant vouch for Color, but i believe it CAN work on an iMac.
the main sacrifice would be SPEED, and this includes live playback of graded material.
my guess is this might be ok for this project.

Thanks. He'll need to do further checking.

Quote
Nick Meyers
Yes one FireWire port is sufficient. and the good news is you can (and should) stick
with Firewire drives.

i have been working on my iMac for a year now. for capturing and playing back i simply diasy chain the camera or deck off one of my drives.
(a hub wont be any better, probably cause more problems, and it'll just break eventually)

USB drives are not so good with video, so they say.
it *might* work, but it's a problem waiting to happen.
best to stick with FW.

yes, capturing and editing on the boot drive (separate partition) will work reliably
UP TO A POINT, but it's not a great idea. working EXCLUSIVELY on the internal will fill it up, fast. renders exports, etc, etc.

when it gets too full, the whole system will choke.
look for an external solution.

Exactly the information he needs. Thanks! It's great to know that both daisy chained FW and the Internal Drive will work. For his project I don't think he will ever need more than 10 or 20 hours of footage on the system at one time. With an extra 700MB available on the internal drive he can probably capture all related footage, do his simple editing and tweaking, author and burn the dvd's and archive his completed footage to external drives, then remove it from the internal drive.

Quote
Nick Meyers
i would also suggest that the VHS isn't captured directly into the computer.
even in this file-based age, i think it's safest to dump the VHS to DV tape,
then capture. if something goes wrong, then the tape is always there,
and the tape will be a lot better for archive purposes.

Quote
Nick Meyers
one more suggestion: if the process DOESNT involve recording to DV, then capturing,
then i'd suggest that there should be SOME form of redundancy.

a second FW drive, with a complete backup of the captured media is kind of essential.

your pal got to this stage because he still has those VHS tapes.
tapes still last a whole lot longer than drives do,
so start backing up now!

Thanks for your concern! IMO a good solution doesn't exist. Tapes are fragile, subject to being demagnitized and should be stored in a climate controlled environment. DV tapes are an unknown in terms of longevity and are more expensive than hard drives.

Hard drives are affordable but after a year or two on the shelf you can't count on the drive working.

Blue ray has zero track record, they are a little pricey and too small for convenient archiving of hour long SD programs.

He is planning to make two copies on hard drives (all footage on at least 2 drives), or possibly on Blue-Ray Discs.

Thanks Again !

Mitch

Quote

The question is which is the better card. ATI or Nvidia? On the early Mac Pro's ATI Cards performed much better with Color than more powerful Nvidia Cards. Based on that I was going to recommend the ATI but thought I should check first.

you might have to ask that question in a new thread.
i dont know the answer,
and no one else has joined in here, yet!


nick

[www.barefeats.com]



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Hi,

Nick:

Quote
Nick Meyers
the only way to get VHS into an iMac as ProRes would be an AJA io HD or the Motu V4HD,
which are both kind of overkill.

Any reason why a AJA Io (SD) or AJA Io LA wouldn't work?

One limitation would be the AJA Io SD series doesn't work with color (the HD series does).

FYI they recommend not using the AJA Io SD series with FW drives on the same bus (this might also apply to the HD series).

Ben:
Thanks for the link. Unfortunately none of the models are the same but it looks like the ATI might be a good choice.

Thanks Again !

Mitch

Quote

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately none of the models are the same but it looks like the ATI might be a good choice.

Huh??? Same as what?

The article I link you compares all the graphics card options available for the MacPros on a variety of apps and games.

Are you looking at a different article? Click the link I posted!



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Hi Ben,

My question was which of these cards is best (options on the iMac):

Quote

# NVIDIA GeForce GT 130 512MB [Add $150.00]
# ATI Radeon HD 4850 512MB [Add $200.00]

I saved the link in case he decides on a Mac Pro.

Also (FYI) Color might do better with an ATI regardless of other apps.

Thanks !

Mitch

Oops sorry I thought you were asking about the MacPro

...the 4850 would be the best option currently for the iMac.



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Hi Ben,

Ben King Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oops sorry I thought you were asking about the
> MacPro
>
> ...the 4850 would be the best option currently for
> the iMac.

Yes!

Barefeats iMac Graphics Results

Please don't apologize!

I would not have found this if not for your previous link.

Thanks Again !

Mitch