Need an experienced editor to advise on workflow

Hi all:

I am hoping that someone here has already attempted this work flow and will have the best plan of action.

Production will be with an HVX200 and two Canon 5D MKIIs. Long form doc, tons of footage from both but ratios are intended to be 70% HVX200 and 30% Canon D MKII footage. Since such a large amount of footage will be shot, producer would like to shoot 720 24pN to maximize limited P2 card availability. Shoot will be in a remote area with access to computers and drives only at night, not during the shooting day.

I see a few possible plans of action...

1. Shoot the HVX200 at 720 30pN. Yes it reduces a 16GB P2 card from 42 minutes at 720 24pN to 34 minutes at 720 30pN, but I think it will be much easier to integrate 30 frame footage from the HVX with the 30 frame footage from the 5D MKII.

or

2. Shoot the HVX at 720 24pN. Before post begins, convert all 5D MKII footage to DVC Pro HD 720 24p via Cinema Tools and Compressor. I have tested this workflow and the footage ends up looking okay with the right recipe (I have one) but I am afraid that with the massive amount of footage the production will have (it shoots for 6 weeks!), this may be unfeasible as far as conversion and rendering.

or

3. Would RT playback/mixed time line in FCP allow the 24pN from the HVX200 and 30P footage from the 5D MKII to co-mingle (assuming we had already converted the 5D MKII footage to 720 30P DVC Pro HD) and actually play back well enough for the director/producer/potential backers to view rough cuts with the assumption that after the cut is locked, THEN all of the original 1080 H264 5D MKII footage used in the cut is converted to 24p with a (gulp) manual re-conform of the 5D MKII footage in that time line?

This doc is on a serious subject in a third world country, already has considerable interest and financial backing and has a good chance of selling to TV and for film festival runs.

I am concerned because editors and post supers have beat it into my head for years to never shoot 30p, always shoot 24p or shoot 60P or 60i because of the difficulties in converting a 30p master to PAL, film outs, etc. I know that 24p is much more versatile for film outs (if the producers were so lucky) and PAL market conversion. Unfortunately, as of today, 30p is the only frame rate that the 5D MKII shoots so I have to figure out a way to make this work.

For those of you with experience in foreign distribution, PAL markets and film outs, am I correct to think that option #2 or 3 would be best. How would you handle this post workflow?

Thanks for the advice,

Dan

Ick what a mess. I would convert the Mark II to 24p and shoot HVX200 at 24p because 30p will be a disaster when it comes time to convert for PAL and the like not to mention aesthetically it looks bad. And write your frustrations to Canon so they will get it that 30p is not an acceptable format without a 24p option. Is it too late to convince the director to shoot on a Panasonic GH1? You get 720p/24p to match the HVX200 exactly with all of the same interchangeable lens goodness. Or the Nikon D90.

Sadly the MKII gets directors excited with the look but in practice it's death to post-production.

-Noah

Final Cut Studio Training, featuring the HVX200, EX1, EX3, DVX100, DVDSP and Color at [www.callboxlive.com]!
Author, RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera available now at: [www.amazon.com].
Editors Store- Gifts and Gear for Editors: [www.editorsstore.com]

Shoot 24 and leave the Canon 5Ds out of the workflow and rent two more HVXs. Much smoother workflow and not much more cost. Why use a bleeding edge acquisition format when you can use a proven workflow? Whose idea is that anyway? Doesn't sound like you Dan.

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Any reason you cant take some storage like the Caldigit VR Mini, G-Tech G-RAID Mini or LaCie Rugged out with you and convert it all on a MBP or even 2 MBPs after each days shoot back in the van/hotel/tent?

I feel 24p would be the best option not least because you have to convert the 30fps (nonstandard) of the 5D mkII to 29.97 anyway for mixing in the timeline.

Then when it comes to Europe, Japan and Australasia the 25p version just runs 4.1% faster with pitch adjusted audio.

I'd test some out ASAP if you can and work out some approximate timing for conversion and the space required to store it all plus (if budget allows) a secondary backup.



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

What Kevin said. The thing about the 5D ? the utter freaking disaster ? is that it does not shoot 30p. When people say "30p" they really mean 29.97 (and a bit) frames per second. That's the NTSC standard. The "30p" notation is just shorthand. But the 5D shoots thirty frames per second. Not 29.97, but exactly 30. Which isn't compatible with any video or film standard in existence. Sure, you can conform 30 to 29.97, but guess what? All your sound will drift out of sync!

Besides, the firmware update that provides manual shutter control during filming isn't even released yet, so it's literally impossible to get consistent footage out of a 5D right now, even at Canon's oddball "we don't know anything about video" frame rate.

Scrap the 5Ds. They are simply not ready to be used this way.

Here's another rant on the 5D from someone who also knows their stuff:

[prolost.com]

-Noah

Final Cut Studio Training, featuring the HVX200, EX1, EX3, DVX100, DVDSP and Color at [www.callboxlive.com]!
Author, RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera available now at: [www.amazon.com].
Editors Store- Gifts and Gear for Editors: [www.editorsstore.com]

Just to elaborate on "knows his stuff," Stu was one of the founders of The Orphanage (may it rest in peace), the VFX supervisor on "The Spirit" last year, and wrote "The DV Rebel's Guide." He's forgotten more about film and video technology than I'll ever know.

...another tidbit about Stu Maschwitz "knowing his stuff"...he is also the developer of Magic Bullet Looks.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Been there done that on TVC recently. Aside from the post issues, the main thing you'll have to deal with is that the HVX footage is not going to match up at all well to the EOS shots. In part it's the codec, but mostly it's the glass. The HVX simply cannot achieve the photographic standard that you can with the EOS which allows a full range of excellent lenses. In all fairness, the HVX wasn't built to do that.

Is there a creative reason for mixing the formats, like maybe the EOS footage is going to be all black and white with a strong photographic look? That could actually be pretty cool. Just be aware that the difference between the two formats is glaringly obvious. If on the other hand you want the footage to match, (i.e. not be noticably different) then you will definetly find yourself spending a lot of extra time in grade to get the footage to work together. On a long format job, potentially very time intensive.

If they insist, then I'd insist that before they go run off to some remote jungle location, they should shoot some tests that are representative of what they want to achieve. Then cut a few of those shots together and let them see what they're in for.


hth,
Clay

I'd suggest renting a Letus 35 or P+S Technik and leaving the EOS 5D at home. The only reason people want 5D is that they think it's the only way to get shallow depth of field- but it's a Faustian bargain. Get a 35mm lens adapter for your HVX200 instead- you'll get the same visual look with a consistent format and way less trouble in post.

Noah

Final Cut Studio Training, featuring the HVX200, EX1, EX3, DVX100, DVDSP and Color at [www.callboxlive.com]!
Author, RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera available now at: [www.amazon.com].
Editors Store- Gifts and Gear for Editors: [www.editorsstore.com]

Gotta be said I'm with Noah on that one.

Or get a couple of EX3s if you need longer recording or even the new JVC.

Take the 5D for Stills though



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Hi all:

Thanks for the advice, some good points were made by all of you.

Consulting for a production, it is definitely not my project, I would not try to mix the two. FWIW, they are totally aware of the difference in looks and are okay with it, they are using the HVX mostly for interviews and the 5D MKIIs mostly for b-roll.

I came to the same conclusion, I told them that if it were me, I would shoot the Canons, come back from the shoot and convert it all to 24p before beginning editing. I would not rely on the Canon's audio, it is crap (I know, I am shooting a doc in France in a few weeks using only the 5D MKII). I ran some tests and if you do the long, convoluted render intensive method of conversion of the Canon 30P (there are mixed opinions about if the Canon really shoots 29.97 and just the file header is written as 30p or if the camera really does shoot 30p and not 29.97) to 24p, the footage still looks good and works fine. You have to re-conform the audio too, it is a total PITA, but it works. Every aspect of the Canon 5D MKII reminds me of shooting 16mm with my Russian K3. A totally painful process but the results can look good. I like to call the aesthetic of the camera "stills with motion". For me, it is not the shallow DOF, I just like the look of the Digic IV processor combined with the ancient Nikon pre-AI lenses I am using. It's more about the color and texture of the images than the DOF.

They are bringing an HVX200 and a Letus Extreme as well as the two 5D MKIIs. I told them that I would not shoot 30P on the HVX unless they were positive that their project will be shown on the Web only, which it will not be, it could go out on DVD, PAL, Film Out, etc. so I told them 24pN is the only way to go.

What can I say, people are going to do what they are going to do. All I can offer is recommendations about how to slightly ease the pain and end up with a usable master.

Thanks so much for all of your wisdom and confirming what I thought,

Dan

Then as I suggested do the conforming in the field if you can saving on post processing time later.

I'm sure you could set up a batch in Compressor and just leave it going.



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

"MKII gets directors excited with the look but"

Wow! I'm shooting behind-the-scenes footage on a movie set in the desert in Arizona starting on Monday. It will go on for a few weeks. The DP is only using the 5D MKII's to shoot this full length feature film western. Also this is the film editors first crack at a full length feature film... This ought to be good! They are going for a theater release. Can footage from the 5D MKII be able to do that? I was wondering about that

I'm shooting with the AG-HVX200A, so I feel lucky

It's not nearly as bad working with the Canons if that's your only format. It's a mess in post but at least everything is consistent in terms of conversion. But mixing with a proper 24p format is a mess...

I think these are amazing cameras and almost capable of shooting a format you'd want. But in a year, the 5D Mark II will be completely obsolete as other proper 24p shooting DSLRs and cameras like RED's Scarlet supplant it.

Noah

Final Cut Studio Training, featuring the HVX200, EX1, EX3, DVX100, DVDSP and Color at [www.callboxlive.com]!
Author, RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera available now at: [www.amazon.com].
Editors Store- Gifts and Gear for Editors: [www.editorsstore.com]

Quote

I think these are amazing cameras and almost capable of shooting a format you'd want.

Unless what you want is either 24p or 60i with a 180° shutter. Can't do that. But anything else, sure, man, no problem!

I said *almost*. Almost is not something I want in a camera. Not these days when there are so many cameras that do exactly what I want.

Noah

Final Cut Studio Training, featuring the HVX200, EX1, EX3, DVX100, DVDSP and Color at [www.callboxlive.com]!
Author, RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera available now at: [www.amazon.com].
Editors Store- Gifts and Gear for Editors: [www.editorsstore.com]

Yeah, agreed. Almost is good enough for hobbyists, home-movie people and (arguably) photojournalists who also shoot short video clips on scene for Web distribution. But almost doesn't make the 5D a professional (or even prosumer) video camera in its current state.

We get manual shutter and exposure control ? which has been announced ? and 24p or 23.976p or both ? which haven't ? and it'll be a viable option for professional video work.

While it def needs a lot of updating to bring it into the proper video/film workflow, if you get dedicated people with some experience, the 5d can gets some amazing results...





Personally, for me, once the GH-1 is released I'm prob going to pick one up for my personal/hobby use. I've always been a big Panny fan and while it'd def not as highend as the 5D, at least the designed it for video instead of just tacking it on like Canon did. Also, half the size and half the price aint bad.

Regardless, the whole DSLR video world is going to bring a lot of headaches to the post world as amatuers/hobbyists/producers start hearing about things they can do and just jump right in without really looking at the whole situation. That said i can't to try and start shooting with them myself...i love a good challenge