HDV and HD Cam

Friends...

I shoot using a Canon XH A-1 - which is HDV in either 1080i or 24p (or "f"

I cut in FCP Studio 2

I'm about to do a project that needs to be delivered on HD Cam.

A few questions:

1.) Having shot in HDV, is there any advantage or disadvantage to working in FCP in a DIFFERENT format than the original capture? i.e. working in Apple Pro Rez rather than in HDV.

2.) If I cut in HDV - then output directly to an HD Cam recorder will the image look as good as it can? In other words... will the HD Cam "see" the HDV signal as a standard 1080i? (or 24p?)

3.) If I cut in HDV - then output to an HDV tape, will a tape-to-tape transfer of the HDV tape to an HD Cam work and be of good quality?

OR.... does anyone have a better work-flow suggestion for a project like this?

Thanks in advance

Ron

>1.) Having shot in HDV, is there any advantage or disadvantage to working in FCP in a
>DIFFERENT format than the original capture?

Advantages- you skip conforming times, quality loss on renders can be reduced if you're on a higher quality codec. Disadvantages- drive space, conversion time.

>2.) If I cut in HDV - then output directly to an HD Cam recorder will the image look as good as it
>can?

HDV IS an HD format, so is HDCAM. HDCAM however subsamples the picture. HDCAM SR is a superior mastering format. That aside, if you have to deliver HDCAM, deliver HDCAM. HDCAM SR is kind of overkill in this situation.

You can also render directly to ProRes and export that to tape.

>3.) If I cut in HDV - then output to an HDV tape, will a tape-to-tape transfer of the HDV tape to
>an HD Cam work and be of good quality?

The conforming will result in quality loss. Graphics and text will undergo heavy HDV compression.



www.strypesinpost.com

1. Yes. Better render times, better color space for color correction. But the biggest issue is shooting HDV to begin with. Rife with artifacts that can't be gotten rid of.

2. Well, if you do any heavy color correction, then no. HDVs 4:2:0 color space isn't ideal for color correction. Making it 4:2:2 ProRes will give it better latitude later on, but won't add back the mixing information.

Will the HDCAM "see" the HDV signal as 1080i? Yes...if you have a capture card. 24p? Are we talking actual 23.98 or the 29.97 with 24p FILM LOOK? I capture HDV as ProREs all the time, and output to HDCAM SR...works fine.

3. Well, yeah, it can. But then you can't really control the timecode on the tape and you will have to wait FOREVER while HDV conforms back to an HDV tape format.

Suggestion. Get a capture card and HDV deck and capture HDV as ProRes. Better yet, don't shoot HDV.


www.shanerosseditor.com

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Shane...

Just to be clear... I have a Black Magic HD Extreme capture card and I have an HDV deck.

Are you suggesting that I NOT capture from the HDV deck through firewire but rather by taking an RGB output from the HDV deck into the Black Magic so as to digitize into the Pro Rez format?

As far as not shooting HDV...LOL... that's not an option. I already own 2 cameras and all of the related gear... including a Red Rock 35mm adaptor and 10 prime lenses.


(And by the way...yes...we're talking about either 23.98 or 29.97 depending on whether I shoot 24p or 60i. I prefer 24p.)

Thanks,

Ron

One huge caveat about Shane's advice: There are two ways to digitize into the ProRes format. One is via an SDI capture card, through an HDV VTR that's got RS422 VTR control. If you have those things, you can log-and-capture off your HDV tapes just like you would off any other deck.

The other way is to capture over Firewire, using the "capture now" function in log-and-capture. Do not do this! Clips captured through "capture now" cannot be re-digitized in the future. If you lose your media files but still have your project file, normally you'd just select all the offline clips and select "batch capture," then feed tapes into your deck for a while until all your footage is back just like it was. But with "capture now" you cannot do this! So your media files on your system effectively become your master tapes, since without those specific media files Final Cut has no way of recapturing your footage and relinking it to your cut timeline.

Shane's workflow is great. Capturing HDV over Firewire and editing it into a ProRes timeline is somewhat less great, but still great. Trying to smush the two together into a "capture now"-based workflow is a terrible, terrible mistake. Avoid it!

OR.....

Is it actually possible to capture into FCP in Apple Pro Rez through firewire from the HDV deck?

Ron

Ron, our posts crossed. Please read mine: capturing ProRes via Firewire is bad juju.

The other issue to be aware of ? though you probably know this already ? is that there are no VTRs in the world that can play back Canon's 24F format. A tape shot in 24F format can only be played back on a Canon camera, like yours or the XL H1 series or the HV20-30-40 series. And none of these devices has RS422. So capturing ProRes is not an option for you. You're going to have to stick with capturing HDV and cutting it in a ProRes timeline.

>Are you suggesting that I NOT capture from the HDV deck through firewire but rather by taking an RGB output from the HDV deck into the Black Magic so as to digitize into the Pro Rez format?

Better yet. Get the Convergent Design Connect SI and convert that Firewire signal to DVI and deck control. That is what we use here. Lightened MANY headaches we had with this format.

This is the crap I had to put up with.

[lfhd.blogspot.com]

This device alleviates ALL of that.

>As far as not shooting HDV...LOL... that's not an option. I already own 2 cameras and all of the related gear... including a Red Rock 35mm adaptor and 10 prime lenses.

My condolences then. And shame on you. As a professional videographer you should take one look at the crap that those cameras put out (the artifacts that are worse then betaSP dropouts) and return the cameras. Horrid format. CONSUMER format that people try to make professional. Yeah...DEADLIEST CATCH shoots that format. Standards have been lowered.

I cannot tell you how much I hate this format and am amazed at how embraced it is.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
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Jeff...

I guess you just answered my additional question. So in other words... FCP canNOT capture in Apple ProRez through firewire controlling the HDV deck to maintain time code as it would normally do. Right?

And is this the same problem in reverse when outputting? If I've cut in Apple Pro Rez, am I NOT able to output to the HDV deck preserving time code?

Thanks again...

Ron

>FCP canNOT capture in Apple ProRez through firewire controlling the HDV deck to maintain time code as it would normally do. Right?

No, it can. But you cannot control the deck at all. You start the process and let it go. And if you need to RECAPTURE...woe be to you. Good luck brother! Better to do this with a capture card and proper control. And I tell you, that COnvergent Design box is amazing.

>If I've cut in Apple Pro Rez, am I NOT able to output to the HDV deck preserving time code?

If you are in ProREs, you cannot output to HDV...period. IF you want to output to HDV, then you need to cut HDV. OH, and you cannot output to HDV and get proper show timecode, like TC starting at 58:00:00 with bars and tone at 58:30 and picture start at 1:00:00. The format is not a mastering format.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
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Shane...

Thanks for the info and advice. But as for ragging on the HDV format...to the point of "shame on you" or questioning my professionalism...well... I'd say you've been stuck in the editing bays too long. ;-) You're not seeing the bigger picture. I understand that you've encountered technical problems with the format... but honestly... Beta SP doesn't begin to compare with the 16x9 HD image quality of almost ANY pro-sumer camera. I've been shooting and cutting in every format that has existed for 30 years. What sparked and has driven the evolution of the HDV format / firewire / FCP type editing systems is that they make the art of telling stories with pictures and sound affordable for more filmmakers and videographers. Scolding them - or me - for not shooting in a higher - far more expensive format - is like scolding me for driving a Toyota instead of a Porsche. I can't afford the Porsche and the Toyota does the job just fine.

But... it's all good. We all have different priorities in our work. I've shot HDV and Cut in FCP for many many projects and gotten terrific results.... even for broadcast TV. In fact... I've never had a tape returned to me from a network because it looked "wrong" or "bad" - or had artifacts or drop outs. If you know what you're doing and are careful and meticulous...you can get great results. You might be interested to know that the recent movie "Crank - High Voltage" was shot almost completely with the exact "pro-sumer" camera that I use - The Canon XH-A1

Anway... thanks again. And best of luck with future projects... whatever the format :-)

Ron

Sorry man...pardon my rant. HDV does look good. I just have had the worse luck with the format.

Yeah, they shot CRANK 2 with it. THey also shot 28 DAYS LATER with a DV camera. Economy was the reason.

MY apologies for insinuating that you are not professional.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
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