New Monitor to go with New Mac?

So I'm preparing a new Mac purchase and I've finally decided to let go of my 1st gen 20" Cinema Display. It's time to get a new, slightly larger monitor.

However, in researching this, I'm a little confused about some of the technical specs and how they may affect my uses as an editor and motion graphic artist.

Aside from the usual factors of price and size (I have limited space on my desktop), I was looking into contrast ratios and pixel response times.

Now as I understand, higher contrast ratios are better because the show more details especially in shadows. And lower pixel response times result in less ghosting of images, especially fast moving ones.

I read a bunch of reviews on different monitors. The review I saw for the 24" Cinema display was actually very complimentary as it discussed it's 1000:1 contrast ratio and it's 16 milisecond pixel response.

But then I saw a Dell 23" SP2309W that boasts an 80,000:1 contrast ratio and a 2 milisecond response time.

Those numbers seem ridiculously better than the Cinema Display. In fact, I couldn't find another monitor on my search with better numbers. Most seem to have between 1000:1 and 10,000:1 with response times all over the map.

If the Cinema Display has truly good stats from a useability point of view (I've always been very happy with mine), then how much difference will I see with the Dell monitor?

I guess I would enjoy others' input on what they use and like before I buy.

Andy

You really shouldn't waste your time worrying about either of those things. You're not going to be judging color or dynamic range on your computer monitor; that's what your broadcast monitor is for. Computer monitors are (almost exclusively) 8-bit only, so no matter what, they'll never show you and accurate representation of your footage, even if you ignored all the other factors.

Any reasonably modern LCD is going to be fast enough to display 60 Hz material; that's a 16 ms on-off cycle time. A faster cycle time than that is a waste, because there are no video formats that run faster than 60 frames per second. Besides, in the US computers clock LCD monitors to 60 Hz anyway, so even if you wanted to go to a higher frame rate, you couldn't.

Well, I'm not all that worried about my footage. I was more concerned with building gfx and photos, neither of which I can monitor on my broadcast monitor. And then there's the fact that not all of my work ends up on a TV.

Are you saying that for design purposes, contrast ratios don't really matter? I certainly found that tid-bit of 60hz material having a 16ms on/off time interesting.

That, of course, begs the question: If you can't view a higher frame rate than 60/sec, and that translates to 16ms pixel reaction on a 60hz monitor, why do manufacturers build them with faster reaction times? What's the point, what's the benefit for anyone?

Andy

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Are you saying that for design purposes, contrast ratios don't really matter?

Yes. If you're doing work that's meant to be seen on a computer screen, then two things: First, I'm really, really sorry. And second, you have no control over anybody else's viewing environment anyway, so you'll just have to guess no matter what.

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If you can't view a higher frame rate than 60/sec, and that translates to 16ms pixel reaction on a 60hz monitor, why do manufacturers build them with faster reaction times?

Same reason they put go-fast stripes on cars. Because they can, and because it can add up to a competitive advantage in the marketplace if your target market is inclined to care about stuff like that.

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Jeff
If you're doing work that's meant to be seen on a computer screen, then two things: First, I'm really, really sorry. And second, you have no control over anybody else's viewing environment anyway, so you'll just have to guess no matter what.

I didn't say my work was meant to be seen on a computer screen. I said that it doesn't all end up on TV. There is print that I work with, and also projection as well as monitors.

And in the monitor cases that I'm referring to, I DO actually have control over everyone's viewing environment because it's an installation. I just want to be able to get the best possible approximation while in the digital environment.

Andy

Sorry for assuming. This is an editing forum, after all, so I just naturally jumped to the conclusion you were talking about video.

For print, you don't care about either of the factors you cited. CMYK has a different color space entirely, so the dynamic range of your computer screen is irrelevant. And it, well, doesn't move, so who cares about pixel refresh?

For projection, same answer. Ambient light levels affect the dynamic range of a projected image more than all other factors combined, so unless you're talking about a movie theater, don't sweat the contrast range. And projection is virtually never more than 24 frames a second, so again, the pixel refresh is inconsequential.

Frankly, you can stare at the numbers all day and end up making a decision you regret to your very bones. I've worked (recently) with screens from Dell, Toshiba and Apple, and you couldn't pay me to take anything but the Apple ones. I can't even quantify why, nor do I feel compelled to. Staring at each of them for multiple eight-hour shifts led me to form my opinion, and abstract discussions of specifications can't change it. Instead of examining the stats, put yourself in front of each of the screens you're considering for a few hours ? or even a few minutes; you might not need much time to form your personal opinion. The screen is arguably the most important piece of gear we interact with, because we stare at it all the time. Let your gut, and your eyes, make your decision on this one.

Thanks for the feedback. It helps getting another perspective on this. Like I said earlier, I've been very happy with my old 20" Cinema Display. I haven't bought a new monitor in like, 6-7 years so I was curious as to what was out there.

Andy

I gotta agree with that - the Apple Cinema Displays feel MUCH nicer to work on than any of the other offerings.

I have the 30" and if you are doing print Andy then its a good one to work with especially if you do large page layouts or a lot of photoshop work.



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You know...I have twin 24" Apple Cinema Displays @ my work Studio and as much as I love them, I hate the stands twice as much...they are useless - no telescoping / rotating & tilting is limited.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Thats what VESA mounts and Monitor arms are for!



Put in an order for 2 Joey - we had them at NAB on the SuperBooth - very useful if you need to reposition your monitors.



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Easier said than done, Ben. That's what BUDGETS are for...and ours is tight and those arms are not in there My Media Ops Manager has more important items to buy me this quarter - like a CalDigit VR and the Cinema 4D R11 Studio Bundle

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I use Cinema 4D R11 its so great and a really fast renderer.
Best monitor I think is Eizo ColorEdge CG241W LCD Monitor

D

I'm in precisely the same boat as Andy, right down to my much beloved 20" ACD and companion 17"-- because their heights match.

Andy, I'm actually shopping ebay for the classic aluminum bezel 23" ACD. Quite a few available. And according to Shane you can successfully double one as a gamma-and-color-correct monitor using Matrox MXO box, which is optimized for the 23". If you trust Matrox.

Ben, I'm digging that elegant stand. How do I find out more?

Joey, you're not concerned about the glossy reflections?

- Loren
Today's FCP keytip:

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If I was in a studio with controllable light then a reflective screen isnt so much of an issue - however on my Glossy MBP in bright daylight forget about it!

You can get a VESA mount for most monitors and TVs and the ACDs are no exception.

[store.apple.com]

The Monitor arm I linked is a Herman Miller design and are available from 1000s places worldwide but there are loads of other manufacturers just be sure to get one that supports the weight of the monitor you will be using!

The Herman Miller chairs are Soooooo comfy - I want to get one!

[www.hermanmiller.co.uk]

[www.lcdarms.com]

[www.ergomounts.co.uk]



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however on my Glossy MBP in bright daylight forget about it!

See, maybe I'm just a weirdo. But not five minutes ago, I was sitting out on my balcony ? benefits of being between gigs, I guess ? in the bright sun on my not-quite-brand-new glossy, glass-screen MacBook Pro ? and I didn't have problem one with the screen. Maybe because it's just so incredibly bright, like my iPhone it just burns right through whatever glare or reflection might be there.

Note, though, that the MBPs have an automatic brightness sensor, like the iPhone does. In bright ambient conditions, by default it automatically turns up the brightness of the screen backlight to compensate. A friend of mine has a MBP that's similarly equipped, and he turned off the auto-brightness feature because he said he didn't like the way the screen would slightly vary in brightness in certain lighting conditions. I haven't had that problem, so I keep the feature on, and maybe that's why I haven't had any problems with glare or reflection?

Is yours one of the glass LED ones - the new ones?

Mine is the old 15" MBP with plastic glossy screen and is LCD not LED...



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It's one of the "new" ones. I bought it a couple months ago, shortly before the current-model (the non-Express Card one) was released. Glass screen, LED backlit. Bright as holy heavenly @#$%&. I frequently dial the brightness down to make it easier to look at.

Ah cool - well maybe I'll need to get me one o them new fangled gijits sometime soon...



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Either don't wait too long, or wait a year or two. My gut tells me we're in one of those periods where Apple's gear really isn't where it needs to be. The Mac Pros have such expensive chips in them that they're just not cost-effective compared to the previous generation, and the 15" MBPs don't have Express Card slots any more. Then there's the whole Mini Display Port transition thing they're trying to push, which could be fine or it could be another ADC situation. If I were buying right now, tonight, I'd either get a good deal on a refurbished model of Mac Pro or Macbook Pro, or I'd sit on my money and wait for things to shake out a bit.

But that's just me.

Oh don't worry about me Jeffrey!

I'm on the button. Intel are releasing their new Nehalem based quad-core processors soon on a 35nm process along with the quad-core laptop versions.

I will be waiting until Apple slap one in their offerings before I upgrade the heart of my mobile editing and facebook perusing device.



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Yeah, I'm just afraid that, like the last processor change, the next one will give you a system that's 10 or 20 percent faster at some tasks but costs a third more.

Well there is a bit of a cost saving on the power consumption on the Nehalem Mac I am led to believe so maybe over a year of use the cost might be less overall.

I would like to see in real terms what the cost per annum of running a basic MacPro and Monitor would be.



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Ben-

Thank you for the links. herman miller! My long lost grand uncle!

See if this helps-- even with shipping you might make out:

[www.sit4less.com]

Whoops- just doublechecked- they can't ship Aeron's internationally. Sorry. probably a noncompete. Look at some other models!


Jeff -

Reflections drive me insane. Can't do it. Takes me out of my world.

- Loren
Today's FCP keytip:

Nudge a Canvas layer by subpixel with Command-Option-Arrows !

Final Cut Studio 2 KeyGuide? Power Pack.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

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Reflections drive me insane. Can't do it. Takes me out of my world.

That's what I'm saying, though: I literally don't see reflections on my laptop screen. I can't guess whether that's because I'm personally somehow immune to them, or because this screen is (as I hypothesized above) just so damn bright that it burns right through them. But I fully expected, when I bought this guy, to have reflection and glare issues, and I just don't, and it really surprised me.

So all I'm really saying is don't automatically rule out a glass Apple screen without trying one out yourself, 'cause you might be surprised just as I was.

Cheers Loren

I found a couple of refurb and office seconds that are guaranteed for a year and are very cheap too on this side of the pond but thanks for the link - if the exchange rate continues to get better for me then it might be well worth importing a couple - although I have to pay 15% import Value Added Tax as they are luxury items.

Jeff

I'm not disputing you - my HD plasma has a highly reflective glass screen and I get no issues when its on.

But on my plastic LCD MBP glossy screen I do. However they don't make these anymore so unless anyone reading this is buying a second or old stock then they need not worry.



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Yeah, I suspect ? though can't prove ? that LCD-lit screens just aren't bright enough to burn through glare or reflections.

I have a 34" CRT television with a glass picture tube. When the lights are on in my living room and the TV's off, there's glare all OVER that screen. It's almost mirror-like. But when I turn the TV on, the glare just goes away, because the picture's that bright.

I'm guessing it's the same thing with laptop screens.

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Loren said:
Joey, you're not concerned about the glossy reflections?

You know I am...which is why I am using the Apple 24"s at work and the Dell 24" Ultrasharp @ home = MATTE SCREEN

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Some folks who bought the new 13 inch MB Pro are complaining that the screen is so sharp and bright that every flaw one had never seen before now shows up. Meaning everything on the web looks like crap.

such is progress.

Michael Horton
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