re: Voltaic blues

Remember our discussions on the Canon HF S10 a while ago?

I also decided to pick up the camera and I'm having some strange post-production issues.

This thing shoots AVCHD into MTS files. Since my home system is still a PowerPC G5 using FCP5 (I'm planning a complete system upgrade within the next year to FCP7, Snow Leopard, the works), it means means no Log and Transfer, no ProRes codec. I bought a copy of Voltaic to bring the clips in for editing and, aside from the punishingly long processing times (two days of near-constant rendering for a bit over an hour of footage), it's behaving in bizarre ways.

First of all, the footage is supposed to be 23.98fps. I was pretty sure in reading the camera's documentation that this thing is supposed to actually record in 23.98fps, not just simulate it. But when I bring the MTS files into QuickTime movies (using DVCPro HD codec), not only do the files always turn out to read as 29.97fps in both QuickTime Player and Final Cut Pro, but they also appear to be in a no man's land format -- no matter which settings in Voltaic I choose, I end up with clips that need rendering. And whether I pick 720p24 or 1080i60 as the frame size, I always end up with clips that appear to be 1440x1080. I've tried using the Advanced Settings as well as turning them off, using the software's own 1080 and 720 presets, and they don't seem to produce different results; it's as if the settings are being ignored.

I'm guessing that a $35 piece of consumer software will have its limitations, and when I step up to FCP7 and use the Log and Transfer to deal with this footage some of these issues will disappear. But in the meantime, has anybody had experience with Voltaic? Is it limited to exporting only with certain settings? Or am I missing something?


www.derekmok.com

Hey D, mind if you upload a short clip from the camera?



www.strypesinpost.com

They're pretty fat files, but let me see if it's doable.

This one's really, really short, so I don't know if it'll help with the evaluation, but the others are all over 1GB.

[www.derekmok.com]


www.derekmok.com

Hey D...that HF S10 discussion - I started. I am loving life with this camera - amazing. I have no issues at all with Log & Transfer. I also bought 2 - BP-827 batteries (5 hour charge each) so I can go ALL DAY without plugging in!!

Quote

I was pretty sure in reading the camera's documentation that this thing is supposed to actually record in 23.98fps, not just simulate it.

Nope...you should have read the manual closer...it does NOT record 23.98 fps...it records 24p as 60i. You can get to 24p via cinema tools. This is FULL 1920 x 1080 HD video coming from that camera. I think voltaic is converting it to something else (you get what you pay for I'm afraid). There's nothing better than Log & Transfer in FCP for AVCHD...it simply converts it to ProRes. Time to upgrade my friend.

I also hope you figured out that if you manually adjust down the gain (take it off "auto", you can get richer blacks in low light.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

> you should have read the manual closer...it does NOT record 23.98 fps...it records 24p as 60i.

I suspected that was a possibility. Unfortunately, I think they wrote the manual for people who don't care about the actual frame rate...I searched through that and the Canon website looking for the real frame rate and only got the marketing lingo ("shoots 24 fps!".

But that was one issue...the real issue was the Voltaic claimed it could convert to 23.98fps, and didn't. A better software like MPEG Streamclip would have taken the 60i source and applied the settings as I'd instructed to turn it to 23.98fps -- whether it does a good job or not.

So yeah, "one bit of money, one bit of product", as we say in Chinese. (一分錢一分&#36008.

I really don't think this 24p mode looks all that hot. For my next test I'm going to shoot 60i and use Nattress 24p simulation instead. Luckily, I'm using this camera mostly for "hobbyist" jobs.

I deliberately shot this street music performance because I'd just shot that exact same girl at that exact same location the week before using my GL2. Strangely, the HF S10 looked worse on location especially in terms of saturation, but the footage responded very well to treatment in post.

I bought one of those BP-827 batteries as well. The one that came with sucks...100 minutes? Come on.

One thing that annoys me about the camera: The Custom Dial is absolutely horrendous for focus. I'm used to the GL2 where the focus dial in front is nice and huge and responsive. But if you configure the HF S10 to focus in front (Custom Dial) and exposure on the joystick, the focus takes about eight to 12 rotations to refocus...which, given the small size and light weight of the camera, makes shooting difficult and wreaks havoc on stability. I figured out a way around it by reversing the controls (exposure in front, focus on joystick), but this arrangement is counter-intuitive. Canon tells me you can't adjust the sensivity of the front Custom Dial. The focus and exposure also revert back to auto way, way too often for my taste.

The built-in video light (weak as it is) was a nice touch, and I'm very happy with the still camera in daylight. It couldn't take stills in low light without the flash, which is a shame, but I guess it's too much to expect it to perform as well as dedicated still camera like my Fuji S9000.


www.derekmok.com

> I also hope you figured out that if you manually adjust down the gain (take it off "auto", you
> can get richer blacks in low light.

I don't think this camera even has manual gain (Canon confirmed this). It has the AGC function, but that is disabled if you're in manual exposure...which is how I keep all my cameras, no exceptions. I do miss the 18dB manual dial for gain on the GL2 and XL2. But given the price difference, that wasn't unexpected.


www.derekmok.com

Yeah...just looked at your clip, Derek...loaded with issues. The PAR not withstanding, why use DVCProHD instead of ProRes? You are losing a lot of resolution information using this voltaic software. There is also some kind of bad frame blending / deinterlacing going on. Haven't you ever seen the fishtank footage clip I posted in that original HF S10 thread? That was log & transfer / prores / low light. Transferring is quick and it keeps it @ 1920 x 1080 / converts to 29.97 by default (cannot change any of that...which is DUMB).

I haven't upgraded to FCS3 yet so I don't know what it does with AVCHD. Maybe Kevin Monahan or someone who has done it can jump in and give some details.

I think your best bet is to upgrade.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I consider the AGC Limit adjustment "manual gain" as it MANUALLY can be controlled from the dial under the lens and I set it at @ 12 db. I like to run & gun under many different lighting conditions so manual exposure is a PITA...only use it for rigid set-ups. Did you try adjusting the AGC limit before activating Manual Exposure?

I am not crazy about the 24p setting either. I keep it at 60i and Post it to 24p using Red Giant tools. I have much better control over the look.

Moral of this story = This is a $1,000 Prosumer camera! The best the market has seen in a very long time in it's class (read the MANY positive reviews). You can't have every professional camera option at this price point and for what you pay for here, you get MORE than your money's worth. There is really nothing to complain about IMHO.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

> The PAR not withstanding, why use DVCProHD instead of ProRes?

You always forget -- FCP5 equals no ProRes.

Once I upgrade, all these tests go out the window and I start from scratch at the shooting stage. These tests are just to see how my old system handles the process...and the answer is, not well at all.

Which is why I'm not using this camera for anything professional yet. The singer-songwriter is a friend, I'm not charging her. Educational purposes only.

> There is also some kind of bad frame blending / deinterlacing going on.

Probably mangled by Voltaic's attempt to yield 23.98fps. That wouldn't have been surprising. What surprised me was that it failed -- the end clip is still 29.97fps, both in QuickTime Player and in Final Cut Pro.

But that said, until I get used to shooting with this camera, I'm not making conclusions yet. I need to shoot some footage dead on sticks to judge the motion properly..


www.derekmok.com

> Did you try adjusting the AGC limit before activating Manual Exposure?

Yep. It disappears once you go to manual exposure. I'm pretty certain it's either/or, not set-and-it-stays.

> Moral of this story = This is a $1,000 Prosumer camera!

Sure, absolutely. I bought this camera to try out some HD workflows that I don't encounter at work. For the amount and class of shooting I do, it simply isn't economical to go for a camera above $2000 -- and remembering that accessories can add several hundred on top of that.

I bitch and moan about some things on the HF S10, but the fact is, it's really quite stable for such a tiny, light camera. I love the dual-menu system (how it goes to the more important, on-the-fly features like white balance, and then you can go deeper into system settings). The joystick was a great idea, just needs tweaking -- it's more that the Custom Dial should have been more responsive; it just doesn't do the job at all if you try to set it to control focus. Plus I'm spoiled by the conventional focus dials of the GL2 and XL2.

The GL2 is obviously a much higher-end camera in its class than this HF S10...after all, it's almost double the price.

Lack of a viewfinder is an issue, unfortunately, because the door swings out so far that it makes "stealth" shooting much harder.

One thing I've always loved about Canon is that even for such a small camera, it has manual audio-input controls. Really makes the difference, especially since over 70 per cent of my "hobbyist" shoots are music performances.


www.derekmok.com

lol...you're right...I always forget that pre-FCP6 = no ProRes. It has made life so much better in my world that I have COMPLETELY BLOCKED IT OUT!! Sorry about that.

Agreed...it is small and hard to stabilize without help. I have a Steadicam JR than this unit seems to have been build for....but I don't want to lug that around everywhere (Disney, kids games, etc). It's overkill - everyone looks at me like I just dropped out of a flying saucer (yep...I have tried it).

I am one that does not need the viewfinder. Pressing my eye against the camera is useless to me when the focus assist works so well and I can use an external monitor on more locked-down shoots.

I think it would be wise to invest in a nice solid telescoping Monopod for quick stable shooting on the go I saw some peeps @ EPCOT walking around with them and I was a bit jealous. I will be taking my own advice - it is on my wish list (preceding the waterproof housing and a nice wide angle lens).

A note on stills:

This takes really nice stills for a camcorder (even rapid fire stills!). Make sure you are on 3264 x 2456 / "L" / "Super Fine" and you will be amazed!!

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

That's weird stuff there... I tried opening in QT, and there's a difference in frame size between conform aperture to "clean" and the rest, whatever conform aperture means..

I dropped the into Compressor, and tried to go to AIC with that, settings based off source resoution and frame rate, and I got an almost 720p clip.

Happen to have any of the original camera footage that you can upload? I'd like to have a look this.



www.strypesinpost.com

Thanks for looking, Gerard. The original MTS files are pretty big, but smaller than the QuickTime outputs. I'll try the same clip.

The files I ended up processing did use Voltaic's 720p presets, because a) I didn't need 1080i clips necessarily, and b) they seemed to take less time to spit out. Voltaic literally took all day to spit out something like three clips at 1080i.

Yep, not a viable approach at all if time were of any importance.


www.derekmok.com

> This takes really nice stills for a camcorder (even rapid fire stills!). Make sure you are on 3264 x
> 2456 / "L" / "Super Fine" and you will be amazed!!

Yes, it does. The focus is actually a lot easier to use than the Fuji S9000 I used to use, resulting in sharper results. I'm not quite pro when it comes to photography, and I was very happy with the results even when I was just taking self-portraits.

Just don't take it to a night shoot, though. Even at maximum exposure, it's pitch-black without the face-whitening flash, while the Fuji S9000 was able to get results without the flash -- grainy results, yes, but perfectly visible.


www.derekmok.com

I also find that when I go into the ProRes conversion in QT (Command/J) that if I tick "Single Field", it sharpens up the clip considerably. Deinterlace combines (blends) the fields and softens it a little.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Quote

Just don't take it to a night shoot, though. Even at maximum exposure, it's pitch-black without the face-whitening flash, while the Fuji S9000 was able to get results without the flash -- grainy results, yes, but perfectly visible.

Again...it's a $1000 video camera. It's not a pro-level D-SLR. You need to play with the aperture more & lock it down man. I photographed fireworks and if I had a tripod, it would have been stunning. Night shots (leaving the aperture open) are awesome with stabilization using the wireless remote. Try using the flash but crank the manual exposure down a few clicks (sometimes Auto Exposure over exposes a dark shot if it's close up). The tweakability is awesome.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

since you ask... Voltaic is a good friend to have if dealing with AvcProHD in case of problems.

I would not base any workflow upon him

If you can upload a clip, I can L&T that to see what I get.



www.strypesinpost.com