THE TEXT that only Big Boys can do.

I have been asking this question for a while and not yet found any answer. If i had this answer i wouldn't have much else that i would peruse.

There is a big difference in the text you see on local news and the text you may see in chiller channel bumpers.
They are not gen'ed in fcp but with all the other tools i have i can not match the look of the chiller channel, or nat geo, or even msnbc bumpers.

i have messed with:
filters
field order
blurs
lights
complete 3d environments

I have gen'ed in FCP, livetype, motion, ai, ps, ae, kinemac, premier, blender and none of this has gotten with in 50% of the look. Not in HD, SD, or 2k. Not in interlaced or progressive.

There is some text program above AE thats being used?

You can not see this on a CPU screen. However, you can turn on any news channel with a ticker at the bottom and see the type of text i do not want.

If you look at the chiller bumper with the red map and red words in 3d you would be looking at what i am trying to achieve.
I am sure i am not the only one wanting to know how this is done.

I understand how to use cams, lights, filters, and so on. I am asking about the sheen and blendiness of the graphic. The way it seems not generated.

It looks more like they actually stenciled some material and then placed it on set, then filmed the text, Rather than gen'ed it in post. If it wasn't for the behavior of the text i would believe that is what happened.

There must be a technique to this. So how do the big boys do it?

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

What.

Lots of hard work, experience and trial by error. That's why they get PAID for what they do. HIRE A DESIGNER.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

J., if you want your text to look its best in DVD, for example, you have to export 8-bit uncompressed. Try it and you'll see. I've researched this for the last three years. It was very hard to find. ... If you want even more quality, try 10-bit uncompressed. I have not tried this, and my system is only FCP 5.05, so I don't even have ProRes (so I don't know if the upgrades above mine can improve on the system I have.)

Good luck~

so who can i pay to learn the technique?

This text thing has been bothering me since FC v4.5. My text is acceptable and nicer than a lot of things i see on tv but that text blend is an edge I'd like to have.

I have 3 projects that i keep opening and trying different stuff (2years) but i can not get it to show on my monitor, tube tv, or lcd the way i see it on these examples i gave in my previous post.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

What's the chiller channel? What bumpers are you talking about?

Tom

The Chiller Channel my be along with the direct tv package i have but....

Vonage 30s/1m spots, Comedy Central Promos, Lincoln MKX commercials, Volkswagen, Gieco all have it, especially when the show their logos.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

Now would be the time to post samples, and to be specific.

Sounds like the OP is comparing straight FCP text output with highly designed motion graphics, often done in 2.5D/3D but graphics gurus like Joey. I am with him, hire a designer, the difference in the end result will justify the cost. Motion graphics are one thing that you just can't fake, you either know what you are doing, have a great eye, design skills and probably a degree in fine arts or you don't.

I always tell clients I edit for, "I can do your motion graphics but I am not a designer, I am an editor so my motion graphics will never be better than barely adequate. If you want quality eye candy, we need to hire a motion graphics artist and pay them to do something kick ass".

Dan

Most high end commercial graphics are still produced on a Flame/Smoke system. AE is great, but the aliasing on the text, and smoothness of gradations still are no match for high end motion graphics suites.

Perfect example. The ramp filter in AE is the worst. I can spot a commercial produced in AE when it has the ramp filter and the blocky, horrible looking gradations.

-Rick

I will vehemently disagree with Rick. "Most" high end commercials are NOT produced on Flame/Smoke systems. A lot are, and it is the standard for "high end" (it better be at $500 to $1500 per hour) but the amount of those systems has dwindled greatly in the last 5 years because of cost. AE is MUCH more prominent in commercial work and it IS a high end Motion Graphics tool - it has been for the almost 10 years I have been making National commercials with it

BTW..."RAMP" is not a plug-in to judge AE on...it does suck - it is a cheesy plug-in that is only used by "operators" and not "Designers". Anyone that knows how to get high end images our of After Effects knows that.

If you want to talk gradations, add Trapcode's Shine to a layer in AE's 8-Bit Color Space and look at the horrible banding. Then, change the project to 16-Bit Color Space and watch the banding disappear. You have to know how to get the "high end" images out of it.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

"Then, change the project to 16-Bit Color Space and watch the banding disappear. "
Until now no one has mentioned 16 Bit!

------------------------
Dean

"When I see you floating down the gutter I'll give you a bottle of wine."
Captain Beefheart, Trout Mask Replica.

That's what I thought 10-bit was for! And now I hear "16-bit."

Holy Stephanie Birkitt!

- Loren

Today's FCP 7 keytip:
Jump-back to your pre-roll value with Control-Command-Spacebar !

Your Final Cut Studio KeyGuide? Power Pack.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

16 bits per channel is the highest full integer resolution you can use. After that most guys use 32 bit float (usually for internal calculations on render). But it totally depends on what format you are going out to, as your final output is usually at 10 bits per channel for most broadcast formats.



www.strypesinpost.com

No, you're right, 16-bit linear TIFF image sequences are used for film-out. But what a load on consumer machine processors.

Just a few years ago you couldn't even get 10-bit DVCPro HD to behave -- transitions would go screwy. The minute you backed off to 8-bit, all was well. So what if you had an occasional banding issue... we called it art.

Progress!

- Loren

Today's FCP 7 keytip:
Jump-back to your pre-roll value with Control-Command-Spacebar !

Your Final Cut Studio KeyGuide? Power Pack.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

Ok you may not be able to see it on the cpu screen but here are some examples. I understand that some of this has 3d in it however it is the blend and feel of the graphice elements that i am pointing out. ESPECIALLY THE TEXT.

1. Notice the comedy central logo and the wednesday @10/9 graphic. When watched on a tv these elements have the look i am talking about. It is in the pre-roll commercial.

[www.metacafe.com]

2. when the cube comes on at the end and the nissan logo.





3. The logo at the end.






It was hard to find examples because most sites that i visited did not carry bumpers and the south park promo was all i could really find in that type category.
When Dan describes it as 2.5D/3D that better frames what i see with the Chiller bumpers.
Also The Wall Street Journal commercial with all of the headlines floating about.

I know that most commercials are shot in digital hd formats, but with that said, the text/graphic elements seem to match the exact stock it was shot. I know things such as shadow and gradients help sell it but shadow and gradient seems not to be the problem.

In my attempts the closest i have been able to get to this is:
> to create the text in PS
> then export to AE adding a water color filter
> then light and a soft shadow and a floor

However i can not composite this to video. If i leave out the floor and shadow then add the water colored text to video it still doesn't mesh to the video well.

If I knew the trick to this i would use it in cases like:

All graphics bumpers with no video. ( just cool graphics)
If i wanted to put text on a wall or floor.
If i needed to make it look like people walking down the street on a rainy day were kicking up letters instead of water.

Coincidently, Travelers insurance has a new commercial where their umbrellas fly thru the city landing on different things they insure. It is 3D graphics but it looks very very real when they land on something.

I hope this helps you guys to see what i am trying to describe.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

[blog.seanmobrien.com]

This is in 3d but the text part seems to match perfect on a cpu monitor.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

A lot of the great text effects you see these days is from 3D programs, so first you need to study mo-graph and 3D. A lot of the 2D effects you can do in Motion, have you tried that? Great text animations are usually made by great designers, that's for sure.

Kevin Monahan
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i will study those things. I wish that i could just take a class that only deals with compositing text/object to video. A designers course so to speak.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

Fxphd is taking registrations for their fall term right now. There are a few courses that touch on this. They're really good people; I strongly urge you to check them out.

JEFF - i check those folks out and that is perfect. Much more robust than lynda which seems to be more for newbies to programs.

i also have seen the effect with commercials about websites. They show the website from a perspective angle and then have parts of the site float off the page in 3d.

I can do that but i can not get it to look like the graphics i see in those examples. I know its just a pdf of the site, marquee separated in PS then animated in Motion or AE, but its that sexy soft blending that makes it hot.

I also looked at the maxon c4d reel. I believe that is what is being used on chiller. Probably can come close with PS 3d objects and AE or Motion but not sure if it would blend. That would seem to be a question that only joey could answer.

Thanks for the 16bit suggestion joey, and i appreciate you guys at least narrowing down what i should be looking into.

If anyone has a user name on fxphd let me know because i am taking 2 semesters of AE and 3 semesters of C4D if i can. Gotta buy C4D i only have the demo right now. They said if i give the username of who referred me then that person gets a free course.

New DVD Tutorial idea:

Objects & Compositing for Dummies by Joe Morelli or Jude Cotter
Text Generation For Dummies by Jeff Harrell or Johan Pullem
(Lots of pros here to choose from)

or even just a book on which programs to use for different aspects of editing and compositing.

I'm a Dummy, so i would buy it on its distribution date.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

I have not scene all of the examples you mentioned, but remember there are dedicated character generators that do amazing things. Many of the ESPN and Fox 3D logo treatments are done with Chyron character generators.

I'm amazed what can be done with them and that people are still using them.

>Just a few years ago you couldn't even get 10-bit DVCPro HD to behave

Gotta be careful here. DvcproHD is an 8 bit codec. Rendering in float is a separate issue.



www.strypesinpost.com

I THINK I HAVE FIGURED IT OUT.

IT INVOLVES SHAKE AND THE A VERY POWERFUL MATCH NODE. I WISH THEY HAD IT IN AE BUT I HAVE NOT FULLY EXPLORED IT.

IT A WEIRD WORKFLOW FOR ME BECAUSE I HAVE NEVER HAD TO PUT AN ENTIRE TL INTO SHAKE AND I HAVE ISSUES WITH OBJECT GEN IN SHAKE.

IT WORKS AND I BELIVE I AM WITHIN 20% OF WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

Please type in lower case. You should know by now that ALL CAPS is equal to SHOUTING.

Thank you.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

my bad. you are right.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

I spoke with someone from tnt and they said that putting graphics on dv there is a lot of work that needs to be done to make it settle into the stock. He also mentioned that on top of hd the even the text gens out of FCP would look better settled/matched within the stock.

I am still wondering what the extra work is that makes it match to dv. I am going to HMC's in February but i would like to know how this is done with dv 1st. I feel like in this way when i get to the had i can use some of those techniques to get even better text on HD footage.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

Quote

He also mentioned that on top of hd the even the text gens out of FCP would look better settled/matched within the stock.

Please proofread your posts before submitting them. This makes absolutely no sense, so I haven't the foggiest idea what you're trying to ask.

He also mentioned that on top of hd even the text gens out of FCP would look better settled/matched within the footage.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

...still makes no sense.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.