inexpensive tapeless cameras for students

I teach filmmaking to choreographers at an arts college. We've been using crappy little miniDV cameras. They have such a short time to borrow the cameras that I'd love to eliminate the lengthy Log and Capture process. I want to try to get some tapeless cameras and simply transfer the footage in. Can you recommend an inexpensive tapeless camera -- SD or HD, doesn't matter. The operative word here is "inexpensive." Like $300-$400. I know that there will need to be a transcoding process added here, to convert AVCHD to ProRes LT or a codec even smaller. Imagine quality is not a factor. I'm looking for a fast and simple workflow, and oh yes, inexpensive.

Thanks for any recommendations.

Mitchell Rose
[www.mitchellrose.com]

I would recommend asking your question on dvxuser.com

As far as cheap tapeless there are always the flip cameras but of course you get what you pay for. No light, no DOF, they are about $200 or less.

If you can rent HVX 200A for a reasonable price I would go that direction.

I'm a big believer in the flip type cameras as solid for students. Also a lot of the current compact digital cameras have excellent video modes. For example, the Panasonic FX35 has 720p video and a nice zoom lens that blows away most 'video' cameras in its price range. If you can live with a camera that takes away some of the manual controls you can get a lot of camera for that price range.

Noah

Final Cut Studio Training, featuring the HVX200, EX1, EX3, DVX100, DVDSP and Color at [www.callboxlive.com]!
Author, RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera available now at: [www.amazon.com].
Editors Store- Gifts and Gear for Editors: [www.editorsstore.com]

How do you get the flip media in Final Cut Noah?

Ugh. You're going the wrong way.

You teach filmmaking to people who aren't professional filmmakers. They don't need to worry about the ins-and-outs of tapeless format conversion and file-based workflows. That crap is complicated, error-prone and frustrating for people who just want to make movies.

Stick with your DV cameras. DV is fine for student work. It's heaven for student work, actually, because it's so simple.

Buy one or two DV-compatible decks. They're cheap. Use those for batch-digitizing. Let your students continue using the cameras for shooting by freeing them from the need to use them as VTRs too, which they were never meant to be.

You can use something like MPEG Streamclip to convert Flip footage into something FCP will like. Here's how:

[www.scribemedia.org]

But Jeff is onto an important point, it really depends what the point of your classes are. If it's how to tell stories by shooting things a certain way and editing, camera like the Flip or digital point and shoots are a great little bargain to just get thoughts down onto footage.

Learning the mechanics of converting their typically highly compressed codecs for editing is basically a waste of time for professional careers. If you want to teach them how to handle pro formats for editing track- you would want to use a more high-end camera or DV as Jeff suggests.

Although the Panasonic cameras I mentioned shoot 720p H.264 QuickTime .MOV files you can drag right onto your hard drive and start editing with. Not quite as optimized as say ProRes but you can definitely put them into a timeline in FCP and start cutting.

So I'd put it back to Mitchell- what is the purpose of these classes?

-Noah

Final Cut Studio Training, featuring the HVX200, EX1, EX3, DVX100, DVDSP and Color at [www.callboxlive.com]!
Author, RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera available now at: [www.amazon.com].
Editors Store- Gifts and Gear for Editors: [www.editorsstore.com]

Thanks, Jeff.

Here's what we've been encountering though. Some of the DV cameras aren't recognized by the iMacs. Odd -- they're the same models as ones that do work... but whatever. So students have to find someone with a working camera to capture.

iMacs now have one FireWire port. (Grrr.) So the cameras have to be plugged into the FW drive. This also is hit or miss in terms on the Mac recognizing the camera. So while in theory this is a simple workflow, I'm inundated with emails all weekend from students who are unable to capture.

Our Lab has 12 iMacs with FW drives chained to them. If I had a couple of decks chained down somewhere, I don't know how students would move their media from the decks back to their stations. It's these irksome logistics that make this less than ideal.

(BTW, what decks? DSR-11s? No way I'm getting that kind of money from my dean.)

So I had thought that a Log and Transfer with a ProRes transcoding workflow would be simpler. I would just prepare a list on instructions: DO THIS. Are there that many variables that can go wrong?

Thanks again.

Mitchell Rose
[www.mitchellrose.com]

Thanks, Noah.

My students are learning to make what's called "Dance for the Camera" -- dance that is meant only to exist on film -- a hybrid of dance and filmmaking. What I stress is the aesthetics of filmmaking and try to go easy on the technical. I teach them FCP but don't get terribly deep -- I go as far as Roll Tool, 3 Way Color Corrector... Advanced Beginner. Most pick it up pretty well, but there's always one student per class who asks, "How do you set the scratch disks again?" (Grrr.)

The things I'd love to have in a camera:

Manual Focus
Manual Iris
Image Stabilization
HD or SD (so that they can use SD and not fill up our hard drives)
16:9 or 4:3

Interesting thought to use the Panasonic FX35. My strange reaction is this:

One of my goals is to get them to think like filmmakers. So with a "point n shoot" form factor I'm thinking that they'll feel like they're playing -- making YouTube movies -- not art. It's the dignity factor. It may seem frivolous, but here are these students paying $34,000 tuition... they're not going to want to feel that far down the professionalism scale. (Just a few ticks up from that.)

Thanks again.

Mitchell Rose
[www.mitchellrose.com]

Hi Mitchell,

Many years ago, I was a student at Long Beach State University. The Film and Video department there (At the time, the Radio/TV department) had a complete studio, which was quite sophisticated for its time, except everything was, by the time I came there, rather antiquated.

The cameras were black-and-white, and equipped with turret lenses, instead of the fancy new "zoom" lenses that the newer color cameras had. The "Studio" was a small converted classroom, just barely large enough to hold the three large cameras, a small crew, and a small set with a couple of actors. The sole "video tape recorder" was a huge "quad" machine, which required a trained operator. When performing an "edit" a simple cut only was successful three-out-of four times. So any productions needed to be done "live".

It turns out that this was the ideal setup for training students the finer points of film production. Without zoom lenses, we had to learn the specific properties of the four lenses on the cameras - and we learned about such things as "depth of field", f-stops, the difference between wide-angle and zoom lenses, etc. The small studio taught us how to try to use the lenses and lighting to make it look bigger.

We did three-act plays with this setup.

What I would recommend is some of the newer still cameras with interchangeable non-zoom lenses - for the reasons noted above.

Oh, by the way, one of the students of that era at Long Beach was a fellow named Speilberg. I'm convinced that much of his training was the result of working with the fixed-length lenses in the tiny studio.

Travis
VoiceOver Guy and Entertainment Technology Enthusiast
[www.VOTalent.com]

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They have such a short time to borrow the cameras that I'd love to eliminate the lengthy Log and Capture process

...but if you are teaching even the basics of editing, Log & Capture is essential. You can't teach Photography without teaching Photo development / manipulation. Why even bother? Get a Film Student Intern to shoot all your student's performances and edit them for you. They will get credits, your students will get tapes / quicktimes, everyone is happy? If you are going to teach editing, do it right. You can capture it all in one chunk and make subclips later. TEACH POST PRODUCTION.

Quote

One of my goals is to get them to think like filmmakers.

You have posted here many times inquiring about inexpensive computers, cameras, techniques, etc...all with the precursor that you are not teaching "filmmaking" but as stated above you want to "get them to think like filmmakers". I still don't understand what it is you do teach and the hows & whys. I am confused...I would love to see your documented curriculum broken down in the Pre-Production / Production / Post Production phases. THAT'S how you get them to "think like filmmakers"...teach them filmmaking and leave the Pre-Production / Production / Post Production to peeps that are DEDICATED to that art form. I think you are spreading your students too thin.

My 2 cents.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Yeah I'd stick with the DV cameras- assuming we're talking about a manual camera like say the DVX100. There's no point in giving them HD cameras if it's all about the technique and um... you're financially challenged. But I mean dang- if I were paying 34K tuition I'd be expecting a lot more than what it sounds like they're getting. I hate to say it but every day I see more evidence that if you want to go to film school you're much better off spending that money on gear and make your own movies...

Noah

Final Cut Studio Training, featuring the HVX200, EX1, EX3, DVX100, DVDSP and Color at [www.callboxlive.com]!
Author, RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera available now at: [www.amazon.com].
Editors Store- Gifts and Gear for Editors: [www.editorsstore.com]

I'm with Joey. What are the students enrolled for? Is it a dance class? Is it a film curriculum? You can't teach everything.



www.strypesinpost.com

Friends... I appreciate the recommendations for equipment that I had requested. It is unnecessary to suggest I rewrite my syllabus. My class is extremely popular and successful. My dean is pleased. My students are pleased. I'm pleased. I'm sorry I apparently haven't made it clear what I'm doing. And I'm not going to try because when people want to pontificate, there's no stopping them.

Again, thank you for your recommendations of cameras.

Mitchell Rose
[www.mitchellrose.com]

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I'm sorry I apparently haven't made it clear what I'm doing. And I'm not going to try because when people want to pontificate, there's no stopping them.

Wait a minute...that is not fair...your info is confusing and there is no "pontificating" going on here. If you don't want to try clarify what it is you are trying to accomplish (and we ask you this often), then the advice you get will not be as precise (which is why some of us ask a million questions). We can only go by what you post...and remember...you started this whole thing with "I teach filmmaking to choreographers". That's a very broad statement. Be more specific if you want specific answers.

You want cheap tapeless cameras? I found this on Amazon:

[www.amazon.com]

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Gawd- if I lived in fear of 'pontificating' I'd be in the wrong business...

Noah

Final Cut Studio Training, featuring the HVX200, EX1, EX3, DVX100, DVDSP and Color at [www.callboxlive.com]!
Author, RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera available now at: [www.amazon.com].
Editors Store- Gifts and Gear for Editors: [www.editorsstore.com]

We're trying to figure out what your course is about, so as to make better recommendations..

If the budget is in, I'd recommend shooting super 8mm. You get the motion blur on film which I don't believe exist/haven't seen on digital formats yet, not to mention authentic light gate effects.... Okay, Shane has a nice tutorial on how to create authentic light gate effects from ArtBeats.



www.strypesinpost.com

Oh man, that's a great idea. I would love to shoot Super 8 sometime; I've never had the chance. A friend of a friend picked up a Super 8 camera on eBay a year or two ago, and used it to teach cinematography and film production students. From what I heard, it was a great way to strip away the superfluous and get back to the basic principles.

Not to mention, it would be a unique result. Heck, I would sign up for a class if it's reasonably within my budget and I get to play around a lot with the super 8s. I have to say, I love the look, the grain, and I love what it does to motion. Dance class shot on Super 8... Spectacular!



www.strypesinpost.com