AJA/Blackmagic/Matrox shootout?

Anyone seen a good article lately that compares the latest cards/boxes/dongles/doorstops against each other? I'll be in the market for a new I/O device next year and would love a good soup to nuts comparison (if it exists).

JK

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Don't think it does. But if you figure out what you need to do, and then look at what the capabilities of the cards are, you should find what you need.

What do you mean specifically? Capture quality comparisons? Ease of use via interface software? Tech support?


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Quote

Capture quality comparisons? Ease of use via interface software? Tech support?

Yes, things like that. The kind of information that comes from reviews and first hand knowledge and not the product pages. Especially looking for 'gotchas', like the fact that the IoHD does not work for grading HD footage in Color.

The difference between AJA and Blackmagic used to be clearer, but now the BM cards have really beefed up their specs (and lowered prices). Now that Matrox has proper I/O solutions there's just a lot more options with more overlap of features...

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I've been wanting an objective comparison like this for years.

- Justin Barham -

Just buy a Kona 3 and be done with it. The best, ask most of the pros who hang out here. Sorry, I am totally biased from years past.

BM makes some okay products, I produced an animated series with half a dozen animator workstations that all used BM cards to output. Support was not as good as Aja, although I have heard that they have improved it. Not sure about today, but at the time, they used a software conversion for HD to SD and vice versa and it had a lot of artifacting vs. the RT hardware that the Kona 3 uses. They have always been a little bit behind Aja as far as I am concerned. Not a bad product and I know that they have lots of fans and users but the Aja products definitely have a better rep.

Matrox? I seem to recall the Matrox debacle of a few years ago and how they hung out thousands of FCP users to dry by never upgrading their product at the time. I would not consider Matrox simply out of principal. They screwed over a lot of users, went away for a couple of years and then came back with the current new product line. I hold grudges with companies who do ethically questionable things. No different than other dishonest companies like Behringer, I will never own a Behringer product because they are despicable in that they ripped off other companies like Mackie and Genelec in design and were never caught and prosecuted. Why support crooks?

Dan

>I seem to recall the Matrox debacle of a few years ago and how they hung out thousands of FCP users to dry by never upgrading their product at the time.

That was Apple's fault. They didn't let Matrox into the loop and give them beta copies of the software so they could write the code. Matrox had to wait until after the OS and FCP versions were released, THEN write the code. And by the time they were done, new versions came out.

>I hold grudges with companies who do ethically questionable things.

Not them... they didn't do this on purpose. It was Apple.

But that is ANCIENT history. That is the past. Today Matrox is in the loop, and makes great products that I use and fully endorse. But if you don't like them, then don't use them. And feel free not to endorse their use. But badmouthing a company, IMHO, is close to libel. There are plenty of products out there that I don't like and will never use again, but I don't go on the web and bad mouth them...I just recommend others. If people ask, "hey, what about X?" I'll say "I don't use them, I prefer Y."

I am a fan of AJA too...and Black Magic Design for several options. BMD also has a sketchy past (mainly tech support), but they TOO have improved, but the interface still isn't as user friendly as AJA and Matrox.


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I have use all the products mentioned and for me Matrox has been a pleasant surprise. I have the MXO2, MXO2-Mini and the CompressHD card and they all work really well. I'm not sure how they compare on price but when I purchased them they were significantly less expensive than Aja.

And with the MXO2 you can "calibrate" a Plasma/LCD to bars. Depending on what your doing that might be all you need.

>BMD also has a sketchy past (mainly tech support)

I can testify to the BMD tech support. I called them up a couple of times (they have an office here), and each time I was put through to their engineer. Pretty darn good tech support, I gotta say.

Okay, between some of the IOs available, I'm writing this from the top of my head so it may not be down right accurate, but in a nutshell, some of it depends on what you want to do with it. I haven't yet worked with the MXO2 range.

BMD has the Decklink SDI, which is a really really nice stripped down feature- if you don't need analog IOs, and just need SDI for monitoring/output to tape, it's only $295. The downside of the BMD range, is that they don't have anything for the Macbook Pros that I know of, which is a pity, because I would love to see something as price scaleable as the Decklink SDI for the Macbook Pro.

The Decklink Extreme HD cards don't do direct 720p25 to SD down conversion (720p25 isn't a broadcast format anyway), however the Kona 3 does it, so does the LH/LHe.



www.strypesinpost.com

>Just buy a Kona 3 and be done with it. The best, ask most of the pros who hang out here. Sorry, I am totally biased from years past.


See Dan, thats exactly what the poster didn't ask for. That was neither "a good soup to nuts comparison" nor an "objective comparison". Everyone has their favourites of course, and AJA have a well deserved stellar reputation both for their products and their customer service, but just because the Kona 3 is a fantastic I/O card (and quite possibly the best available for some workflows) it isn't necessarily the right product for any and every user. What if I want or need analog video inputs? A Kona 3 would be useless. What if I want a mobile/laptop solution, again Kona 3 is not the right beast. I'm not suggesting for a second that makes Kona 3 no good, far from it, but without qualification "buy a Kona 3 and be done with it" is subjective nonsense.

NAIL ON THE HEAD Andy!

I pride myself in knowing the capabilities of ALL the cards out there. I might not have side by side comparisons, but if someone said "I need to be able to do X and Y and Z," I am fairly certain I can give them a couple options to choose from. More and more often on the forums (mainly the Cow) I hear people reply "get the Kona 3 and be done with it" as the ONLY answer they give to "what capture card should I get?" And it is wrong for many workflows for the reason Andy pointed out. I have the Kona 3 here at work, but when I have to capture Analog footage...I'm stuck. So I bring in my MXO2.

If I am flying to Dallas and need to capture footage from 48 tapes for an online, and all I had was the Kona 3 and my tower...WOW! I'd have to either fly all of that to Dallas, or rent a bay somewhere. $$$! Instead I had my laptop and an AJA IOHD (the upconvert capabilities are slightly better with that). But I don't own the IOHD because I use Color on a daily basis...and the IOHD doesn't work with COLOR in HD via firewire.

This is why it is good to know the options...and I am glad there are MANY options.


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Thanks all, great comments so far. OK, I'll take a stab at the specs of what I think I need and maybe you guys can steer me towards a couple options:

The formats I've been editing in, and will probably continue to edit in are DV, DVCProHD, XDCAM EX. Next year I may be doing a lot more work with DSLR footage from Canon's 5D and 7D, so ProRes support is pretty important. Most footage comes in now on drives or card formats (P2, XDCAM SxS etc.) but I'd like the option of being able to hook up a deck if I need to ingest HDCams and DigiBetas. I rarely have to output but when I do I usually go somewhere like Alpha Dogs (I don't own any decks, always rent them). I'd like to have a decent selection of connectors (HDSDI, analog, HDMI) so I won't get stuck if an odd format comes in or need additional breakout boxes (one reason why the BM Extreme looks better than a Kona 3, for instance). I may work with RED footage some day, but I don't know enough about that process or if I even want to mess with 2K editing right now (would have to upgrade the RAID for sure). I do a fair bit of work in Color now, so monitoring that is pretty important; can't afford decent glass but maybe a Flanders LCD will work (via HDSDI or DVI). Driving a second client monitor (like a Plasma) would be nice, and the Matrox options look tasty here because of the option to calibrate that. Plus the new H.264 encoding hardware looks good, as I do a lot of compression work.

Using an IoHD right now; was very useful on the job I bought it for (had to ingest all kinds of random formats, converted to ProRes HQ) but now I'm finding it less useful for my day to day work. I hate having to turn on an external box and losing my whole FW bus to it (still using that DSR-11 after all), and as we've stated before it won't output HD work in Color. I liked having a portable solution in theory, but haven't taken it out of the shop with my laptop ever. Plan on selling it next year and getting a new I/O solution with a new MacPro (rumors of a new model with latest processors - yum!)

thoughts?
JK

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Shane:

I think your assessment of where the fault was on the Matrox debacle of the past is subjective and I recall it differently than you do. Let's just agree to disagree. I have had two other experiences in the past two years with the MXO that didn't change my mind about Matrox customer support, it is great that you have had a different experience.

As far as libel, the other companies (Genelec and Mackie) I mentioned were both in court with Behringer and ended up getting the short end of the stick and many thousands of users who contemplated the class action lawsuit against Matrox feel differently. I could also discuss the Sony PD150/VX2000 class action lawsuit, I have no problem mentioning instances where companies have done bad things to users and have been caught or held accountable. There is a rich history in the past twenty years of various companies who have really left users out to dry, why shouldn't these companies have their past deeds mentioned? It may be ancient history to you, but events that occurred just a few short years ago may not be so ancient to others.

As far as recommending the K3, yes, perhaps I should have asked more information about John's needs but I didn't. My apologies. You and Andy are, of course, correct, for MBP usage or analog inputs, the K3 isn't the right tool. I made an assumption that the user was a typical editor, who, for most users on this board, seem to be accomplished editors using a Mac Pro with digital sources, but that could have, of course, be an incorrect assumption.

Dan

I have used the Kona 3 for years and am now using an older Decklink HD Extreme. I find both cards to be capable of what it advertises to do but I do prefer the Kona 3 because it is more capable in using hardware up/down/cross convert. But there is the current decklink HD extreme which I have not used.

Unless you need 2k support today, the Kona LHi with it's hardware conversion and analog inputs is an excellent buy at $1500.

-CHL

Chi-Ho Lee
Film & Television Editor
Apple Certified Final Cut Pro Instructor

Sorry Dan, but the other poster is correct. Apple not only kept matrox out of the loop, but also killed the product by delivering all the same features in software. all the RT that the RTmac did as of 4.0 was done in software in 4.5. fact is matrox did get a driver out, but by that point, apple had by themselves pretty much done most of the damage.

lets also understand that the RTmac was reaching far deeper into the guts of FCP then other video cards at the time. it wasn't a "dumb" video I/O device sending or accepting video frames and audio. because of this, when the guts of FCP changed, the code changes were very significant. Apple has never let anyone into FCP like this again.

picture you do a shoot, have it in the can, then the client hands you a new script and says this is what its supposed to be and you only now have 1/2 the shots to make the new version happen. thats sort of what happened.

lets also put this into perspective - that was almost TEN years ago. the current MXO2 series products has seen constant driver updates adding new features for the last year almost. about once a month or so Matrox has put out a new driver adding something. they were FIRST with SL drivers, and in fact the prev drivers actually worked ok, but weren't officially certified. its different people now, with a very serious commitment to the mac side of things. also note, they just released PC drivers for all the MXO2 products as well. so its clear they have put their resources behind the product in a significant way.

Well there are a lot of valid points thrown up here - the history of a company and their misdeeds are always going to mar their rep with some people even if they change or weren't to blame.

For instance a number of years ago I would swear blind that the Seagate Barracuda was a better option than the Hitachi HDDs yet it is now the other way around and the small player Samsung is now the most profitable and certainly has as good and reliable electronics as aforementioned.

As far as the AJA vs BMD vs Matrox debate - Personally I've had the least problems with BMD - they are always the first to update their drivers and fix bugs. Although no issues at all with the K3 on FPC 7.

AJA do have a fantastic hardware but at a cost that I often question compared to the newer offerings from BMD which closed the gaps and at a greatly reduced cost to the consumer. As for Matrox. Unfortunately I have not had much experience with, except to echo Dan's experience of yesteryear.

Let me say this - all these companies are now MUCH better than they ever were - all provide a good level of customer support and as was said earlier; they all offer something that fits the bill for your particular application.

How about we start off a comparison thread from here on rather than digress into personal experiences of "a product's lifetime ago".

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For a start what are the main differences between the top card offerings?

AJA K3 and the BMD Decklink HD Extreme

They both have almost identical specs except for these main differences:

---

The BMD DLHDE only has Hardware Downconverter for SD not for Up convert or for Cross-convert for 720p to 1080 or visa-versa

The AJA K3 has Hardware Up and Downconverter for SD>720>1080>2K and visa-versa

---

The BMD DLHDE has 10 bit 4:2:2 HDMI input and output

The AJA K3 does not support HDMI input or output

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The BMD DLHDE has 14 bit digital to analog converters

The AJA K3 has 12 bit digital to analog converters

---

The BMD DLHDE uses full size BNC plugs

The AJA K3 uses miniBNC plugs

---

The AJA K3 has 8-channel 24-bit digital AES at either 48kHz or 96kHz via XLR
or 16-channel 48kHz SDI embedded audio.

The BMD DLHDE has 2-channels 24-bit unbalanced AES/EBU digital audio at 48 kHz or 16-channel 48kHz SDI embedded audio in HD and 8 channels in standard definition.

---

The AJA Kona 3 costs: c. $2990

The BMD Decklink HD Extreme costs: c. $900

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I think if you simply use Numbers/Excel to make a table with all the options for Broadcast and Film that are available in these cards and boxes it won't take long to fill in all the tick boxes and make your own comparison - certainly the time we spend prevaricating could better be spent actually doing the job!



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Nice analysis, Ben.

I'd say, however, that personal experiences are also useful. There is a certain voodoo "X factor" that comes with every user's experience with both hardware and software. It's useful to air those and compare with other users -- tech specs only tell you so much, and when 5,000 users share a certain problem that can't be explained by technical information, that's crucial information when making a selection.

We can criticize companies and equipment makers. As long as we describe our own experiences accurately and honestly, it's not libel. It's freedom of speech. We even have the right to speak/write a personal opinion, as long as we're not prescribing motives incorrectly to the companies in question.


www.derekmok.com

Sony made that PD150...and it had sound issues. But now they have the excellent EX1 and EX3...so you'd swear off buying them because of the issue with the 150? Maybe...some people have. But, it was a hiccup, a bump in the road. One bad product in a line of good ones. YES...getting stung like that hurts. And I wouldn't hold it against you if you never buy them again. That is your right. But to bad mouth the NEW products because of the history of an OLD one makes little sense.

OH, and let's not forget that the MXO2 line was the first to support outputting with embedded closed captioning. SOmething that took the other guys a year later to implement.


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Quote

I'd say, however, that personal experiences are also useful

Of course but thats just the icing on the cake - you actually need to know what the capabilities are as well and seeing as no-one was doing it I thought I might as well

Quote

Sony made that PD150...and it had sound issues.

The PD150 was a crap piece of hardware - cropped letterbox widescreen - then the PD170! Sheesh what a waste of an upgrade - still no true 16:9 FHA - the images on those 2 are awful and the sound problem was an extra bugbear!

Anyway we digress. Shane what is the Matrox competition for the Decklink HD and Kona 3?



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Here is a review of the matrox family of products and comparison chart with competitor products:

[www.videoguys.com]


(horrible long URL....)

PW

I too was a part of that RT Mac garbage. It put me off Matrox forever - don't care who's fault it was...Matrox Customer Support ignored me for months and was horribly vague on their Support Forums. I haven't even looked at Matox 's new stuff since then...don't care how good people say it is.

What I suffer from is Brand Loyalty. This is the thing...what you all are not adding to the equation when purchasing an I/O...and is just as important as the functionality of the different boards...is Customer / Tech Support. I have dealt with Black Magic and AJA...hands down AJA has the best most professional Support in the business. THAT is what steers me to buying their much more expensive gear. I would spend more in a heartbeat knowing that a simple email / phone call and my issues are dealt with...and I have never been turned away because of out-of-warranty either. AJA fully backs all their products and I will continue to support them.

When my Quad PPC died earlier this year, I took my Kona LHe / KL-Box out and put it into the cabinet and went with a fully portable rig (which has worked out very well). It waits for my next tower...which may never come. I may just sell it to a good home cause the next round of MBPs are supposed to be beasts (so I hear).

Kona3 is the best PCIe solution for our current Studio (5 FCP Stations - doing realtime upconverting) and I personally am looking forward to the next iteration of AJA's portable solution that follows IoHD for my portable freelance Studio.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Cheers Peter - they do now support the Adobe Video Products [www.matrox.com]

You might want to update your review.



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Good to know.....but the review wasn't done by me....I have no relationship to the reviewer or website...

PW

well let me even this out a little..
since the MXO2 series goes from the mini to the Rack, let me compare the LE and the Rack units.

The BMD DLHDE only has Hardware Downconverter for
> SD not for Up convert or for Cross-convert for
> 720p to 1080 or visa-versa
>
> The AJA K3 has Hardware Up and Downconverter for
> SD>720>1080>2K and visa-versa

MXO2's have full up / cross / downconversion in hardware. this includes being able to capture SD sources and upconvert to HD during capture

> The BMD DLHDE has 10 bit 4:2:2 HDMI input and
> output
>
> The AJA K3 does not support HDMI input or output

MXO2's have HDMI I and O, 10bit 4:2:2 + 8 audio channels. the HDMI out is color managed so if you want to drive a consumer LCD, you can tweak it.

> The BMD DLHDE has 14 bit digital to analog
> converters
>
> The AJA K3 has 12 bit digital to analog
> converters

MXO2's are 12bit on analog video connections.

> The BMD DLHDE uses full size BNC plugs
>
> The AJA K3 uses miniBNC plugs

MXO2's have all real BNC / XLR's and some RCA's for monitoring outs in a real metal breakout box. putting the A/D and D/A's in their own box external away from the computer is good because the insides of computer's are filled with RF / electronic noise.

> The AJA K3 has 8-channel 24-bit digital AES at
> either 48kHz or 96kHz via XLR
> or 16-channel 48kHz SDI embedded audio.
>
> The BMD DLHDE has 2-channels 24-bit unbalanced
> AES/EBU digital audio at 48 kHz or 16-channel
> 48kHz SDI embedded audio in HD and 8 channels in
> standard definition.

MXO2's support 8 channels in SDI and HDMI currently
*** UPDATE ***
a very reliable source has told me 16 channel SDI support coming very soon

all analog I/O's are 24bit

MXO2 has 4 XLR line level outs, 6 RCA line level outs for direct 5.1 SRS monitoring. no adapters or extras required

MXO2 RACK has 8 XLR's out. thats 5.1 + stereo mixdown monitoring, or lots of stereo outs so you don't need DA's or Y cords to feed a couple decks, monitors, ect.

MXO2 RACK also has 4 channel analog audio IN , 4 channels of I/O AES/EBU on BNC's


> The AJA Kona 3 costs: c. $2990
>
> The BMD Decklink HD Extreme costs: c. $900

MXO2 which includes both tower and Laptop PCIe interfaces, $1595
MXO2 Rack with tower interface is $1995
MXO2 LE which is 2 XLR I/O, $995 - compare to BM HD extreme or AJA LH

neither BM or AJA has H.264 encoding acceleration. if you do a lot of h.264, its a very serious time saver. that adds $400 to the price of either unit, and it must be bought that way.

Steve O

Thanks Peter! That's a great article, lots of info.

JK

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YOu can criticize makers and products...that I find to be fine. But you can't say "X product is bound to be crap because Y product 8 years ago was crap." If you have experience with the product that people are asking about, and it is bad, then by all means, say so. People want and need to hear that. But to say "I would never consider the MXO2 because the RT Mac sucked royally" is pretty screwy.

I had a Decklink SDI card...PCI-X. The second card I owned (the first being an Aurora Pipe Pro, SD only). And I had nothing but trouble with it, and tech support blew. But I have also worked with Decklink Extreme cards lately, and they are much better. So I recommend them to people.

People and companies make mistakes. It happens. If they continually make mistakes, then they might be worth knocking. But if they fix those mistakes, and make quality products, then I think giving them a second chance might be worth while. Well...if you have your prejudices then fine, you don't need to use them. But out right badmouthing them for past mistakes when they have shaped up is bad in my book. If that was the case, we would still be bad mouthing Black Magic Design. And I don't think we should.

ANYWAY... The MXO 2 is a good comparison to the Decklink Extreme and AJA Kona LHi...as well as to the AJA IOHD somewhat. Because it works on towers and laptops. It deals with analog and SDI video, and HDMI and component. It doesn't do 2K like the Kona 3.


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I gotta say, the MXO2 line is looking pretty good. It mirrors some of the best features of the competitors, plus it has the portability option. I get why the K3 is important to bigger shops who need 2K but I don't think I would be doing enough of that kind of work to justify it. Plus, the littl features like RCA I/O really make a difference in smaller setups like mine...

JK

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When we first published the article we knew Adobe CS4 support for Mac was imminent, but we had to wait for that to become official. Now it is, so I've updated the FAQ.

here is tiny link [tinyurl.com]

If you're doing Blu-ray, flash or web video then you definitely want to check out the MAX option for $400 more. H.264 is a fantastic HD delivery compression, but as you know, takes a ton of computer power to encode. With MAX you get faster then real-time encoding. So a 20 minute video takes less then 20 minutes to encode.

Gary

Quote

"I would never consider the MXO2 because the RT Mac sucked royally" is pretty screwy.

That's not what I said, dude...read it again. I said Customer Tech Support left me (and a boatload of other peeps) out to dry and that is a major deciding factor in why & where I buy my gear.

People & companies DO make mistakes. It's the GOOD ONES that make things right with their users. MATROX DIDN'T. Just because you didn't have a bad experience doesn't mean it didn't happen for other people shane.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Well Joe, I don't have a gripe with you. You don't like them and generally keep that to yourself. If others (like me) recommend Matrox...you don't chime in with "THEY BLOW CHUNKS!" You just suggest other things. THAT is what I mean as the "ethical" way of doing things.

Black Magic left me out to dry when I had that Decklink SDI card. 8 calls to tech support and no response back whatsoever. But that was old BMG... they have changed. Matrox has too. They know they screwed up..both of them. That reputation is everything.

Heck...AVID is straightening up their act too! They were WORSE than BMD and Matrox. They were snotty IF they decided to return your call. Their product line stalled at one point, and was buggy and fixes were too little, to late...IF they gave them to you. They felt that they were the only option around. Boy did THAT bite them in the behind! Now with the threat of FCP and Premiere... they have straightened up. I swore that I'd never use Avid again after the Adrenaline crap I went through. But they have come back, they have better tech support, new products, they are listening to their clients. They have improved.


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Gripe!?! There's no gripe. These are OPINIONS...and I can disagree with shane without the house coming down. I stated my experience. Calling me unethical is pretty extreme...jeez, man...these are my opinions based on my experiences.

...and I never said "THEY BLOW CHUNKS!" (quoted). It's unethical to quote someone that did not say the quote.

Sorry I chimed in...I am out of this one.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.