cutting with 30fps(Cannon H.264) and 25fps(Z100)

Hi,
I'm hoping someone can help solve this post path way.
I'm about to start cutting 9 x 3 minute digital stories for the web and possibly broadcast (25fps) but am having troubles getting an efficient post path way together.
We are shooting interviews using the Cannon 5D (30fps,H.264) AND A SONY Z100 (TAPE 25FPS)
The idea is to convert the 30fps footage to 25fps using compressor.
Because Cannon doesn't record sound we will be using the sound from the Z100 to sync to the converted 30fps files.
I have attempted a transcode from H.264(30fps) to Prores HQ 422 25fps in compressor.
All rushes sync with the sony Z100 sound but I can notice a visible frame rate drop.
Is there any way around the obvious frame drop outs?
I'm not confident with H.264 codec. Ideally I would like to
Transcode the H.264 to Apple PRO RES HQ 422 and work with Pro res 25fps.
I have difficulty playing H.264 files on my system.
I have G5 with 8GB ram. Am using a raided 6TB drive and I'm using FCP 6.0.6
Would I have to upgrade my system?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Tania

Unfortunately you're in pretty much the worst possible situation. There is no good way to get 30 fps footage to conform to a 25 fps frame rate. It's a shame this wasn't taken into account before the decision was made to shoot two incompatible formats.

Also, you're probably not going to have a very good experience cutting HD-resolution ProRes on a G5. On the vast majority of G5 systems, HD ProRes won't play back in real time at full resolution. It'll drop to quarter-resolution for real-time playback. Which might be sufficient for creative editorial, but it's annoying.

Tania,

Easy, the hard work is done for you with compressor

[www.apple.com]

Peter

Yeah what the heck- why do people shoot themselves in the foot like this in production? Fix it in post is not the answer...

Noah

Final Cut Studio Training, featuring the HVX200, EX1, EX3, DVX100, DVDSP and Color at [www.callboxlive.com]!
Author, RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera available now at: [www.amazon.com].
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> Fix it in post is not the answer...

Research, people...research.
Nine times out of 10, producers and directors get shell-shocked in post-production because they picked cameras based on recommendations from cinematographers. And unfortunately, only some of those guys ever think about post-production workflow; they only think about how it looks.

Don't just consult DPs, people...talk to editors and post-production supervisors.


www.derekmok.com

Annoying is right.
Thanks

Thanks so much for this download. It offers some relief from the madness of iit all.
Look forward to trying it out.
T

I wouldn't completely discount the opinion of the DP. You don't want to force the editor's decisions onto the DP, especially if they're vehemently in disagreement. That results in a grumpy DP who shoots less enthusiastically- or you shop around for a DP more in step with the production on a technical level. It's supposed to be a colloboration between all departments arbitrated by producers and director- not one department dictating to all others.

But yeah no editor would ever go for 'let's mix 30p and 25p cameras together'. They would have graciously suggested that the DP pick a common frame rate and shoot everything in that.

Noah

Final Cut Studio Training, featuring the HVX200, EX1, EX3, DVX100, DVDSP and Color at [www.callboxlive.com]!
Author, RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera available now at: [www.amazon.com].
Editors Store- Gifts and Gear for Editors: [www.editorsstore.com]

What is the deal with these true 30p Canons? Why are they so popular all of a sudden when they cause so many really obvious post problems?

You have a point, Noah, but I think there's a clear and bright line between discounting the opinion of the DP and going "Oi, mate, what say we shoot one frame rate, hey?"

I think the bigger issue here is that cameras like the much-loathed 5D cannot shoot the correct frame rate, period. I wouldn't be surprised if there are at least some people out there to whom it's simply never occurred to ask if that camera shoots 24 or 25. It'd be on par with asking, "So this camera, it records light?" I mean, to put a camera on the market that literally shoots none of the accepted frame rates ? well, it just boggles my mind.

I understand that the situation is soon to be rectified with a firmware update, though. Not that that helps me comprehend how Canon ever released a camera that was literally incompatible with all other motion picture cameras in the world.

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Why are they so popular all of a sudden when they cause so many really obvious post problems?

I think "new" and "cheap" covers probably eighty percent of it, really. Especially when you expand "cheap" to cover the fact that they use existing Canon lenses instead of cine lenses.

Another fact is that the 5D has a stonking huge sensor. I don't remember if it's quite the same size as Vistavision, but it's definitely bigger than Super 35. The depth of field is really quite remarkable. Unfortunately, that means the depth of field is, well, really quite remarkable, which is a big pain in the hinder if what you want is normal depth of field that doesn't stick out upon viewing.

> I wouldn't completely discount the opinion of the DP.

No, you wouldn't...but the sad fact is that producers and directors often discount the opinion of the entire post-production staff by not consulting them at all at the planning stage. And then they pay through the nose later.

It's too much to expect the camera guys to also know all the nooks and crannies of post. Not their job. That's why you get somebody knowledgeable from post to weigh in. Let us talk to you and let us talk to the DP, preferably in the same meeting.

Another mistake producers make is that they talk to each person, nod away, and then when they relay information, they make mistakes in translation. Have one meeting where the experts can talk to one another, and make your decisions preferably in that meeting.


www.derekmok.com

If I were you, I'd take a SERIOUS look at Avid 4.0. There is a software only version of this NLE, and with the MIX and MATCH feature, you can mix 30p and 25fps in a 25fps timeline and does it in a VERY good and intelligent way.

Not sure about the synching aspect of 30fps (opposed to 29.97) and 25fps audio....that's another mess. But seriously...look at Avid for mixed format editing.

Yes, I know this is the FCP User Group...


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

How does mix-n-match handle incompatible frame rates, Shane? I haven't tried it myself. It's easy enough to imagine that when you drop 24p stuff into a 59.94 timeline it conforms to 23.976 then adds 3:2, but how does it handle frame rates that can't be reconciled without some kind of wonky interpolation?

I decided once, in a fit of pique, that if I ever got any footage from a 5D or other off-speed source, I'd treat it like I'd treat any off-speed footage: conform it to 24p. And when the client saw it and demanded to know why it was running in slow motion, I'd counter by asking why, if they didn't want slow motion, they shot overcranked?

I've never actually had the guts to do it (nor, for that matter, the opportunity). But gosh, the temptation is strong.

"I think "new" and "cheap" covers probably eighty percent of it, really"

Yes but, as you say, they are incompatible with anything ever. What the HELL was Canon thinking?

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What the HELL was Canon thinking?

"How many frames per second can the backplane handle? Thirty? Great, ship it."

Wankers.

Do those pie-in-the-face guys still take commission work?

Well, let's be fair here. While they didn't exactly turn on a dime, Canon have recognized the error of their ways. The 7D does (I'm told) shoot 24 and 25, and they've allegedly promised a firmware update for the 5D to fix the frame-rate problem, said update to ship sometime in the first half of this year.

Honestly? I think the motion-picture-recording in the 5D was initial just a throw-it-in. They found that for not a lot of effort or expense they could make the 5D record movies, and decided to drop it into the product thinking maybe somebody might use it once in a while to shoot their kids playing in a fountain or something like that. There might have been some kind of Web-photo-journalism angle as well, I dunno. Point is, I think the possibility that professionals might want to use their sensor and lenses ('cause that's really all we're talking about here) to record motion pictures simply never occurred to them. Once the realization set in that there was such a demand, Canon seem to have about-faced about as abruptly as a massive international corporation can.

Doesn't change the fact that there are 5Ds out there now that are causing problems for people like Tania. But credit where it's due, at least. Maybe.

The only reason why we are using Cannon is because one of the web makers happened to have purchased the camera for a stills project. They were impressed with the quality of movie image the camera captured. Far superior to the sony Z100.
The downloads for 24/25fps will be available from Cannon mid 2010. In the meantime we have to solve this dilemma.
I've downloaded the Cannon 5D droplet but I'm not sure how to use it now.
Research research research.
Thanks for your response.
Tania

The droplet is trivial. All it does is retime the material from thirty frames a second to 23.976, using optical flow. Which takes forever and yields results that are ? um ? highly subjective.

I will say this. With a good lens, the 5D takes great frames. It just isn't capable of stringing those frames together in any useful way right now.

Even given all that, I can't fathom why they would basically invent a frame rate and include it in a product. It's not like it's their first shot at making video cameras and they weren't quite sure how to go about it... maybe it went through the beancounters before release and they decided to round up the numbers

>And when the client saw it and demanded to know why it was running in slow motion, I'd
>counter by asking why, if they didn't want slow motion, they shot overcranked?

Then there will be guys who'll just drop that footage into FCP, render and go "yea, that looks great! Why can't you do that?"

Frankly, I'll rather shoot on the RED than to get footage from the Canon 5/7Ds. The RED or footage on AvcIntra.



www.strypesinpost.com

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Frankly, I'll rather shoot on the RED than to get footage from the Canon 5/7Ds.

Well yeah. And I'd rather have Geoffrey Unsworth come back from the dead and shoot everything on 70mm for me.

Also? Pony.

Thank's but FCP is the way at the moment. Haven't used Avid for a long time.

Funny. I miss the look of film and working with it.
Alas we just go with the flow and try to make meaningful workflows.

The camera has been put out first as a stills camera that is also capable of filming moving images.
They have developed the 24/25 software which will be available mid year.

The images that I have seen are extraordinary and I can't wait to see what Cannon does with it

If I was cutting this in America the sony Z100 would be a 30fps camera rather than 25fps and I would have the frame rate problem.
I just realised I haven't checked to see if the sony Z100 is capable of shooting 30fps.
That would solve everything...cut 30fps.

T

No complaints from me anymore about "fix it in post". I'll fix it in post alright! I have had a great year so far fixing ill-prepared productions / lame Marketing executions / shooters shooting from the hip / redoing edits / re-designing graphics / re-pulling keys from poorly lit greenscreens / compositing / you name it. Bring it on! I have done 4 freelance gigs already this year and we're only 5 weeks into 2010!!

To you ill-prepared producition folks...I am the one you will face when your pre-production prep is poop...and I AIN'T CHEAP!! Yeah! I'll FIX IT IN POST for ya!! Cha-ching!!

"...what do you mean the rushes show snow and it's night? The shot is supposed to be July @ 12 noon!!! You can fix that in post, right?"



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

>And I'd rather have Geoffrey Unsworth come back from the dead and shoot everything on 70mm
>for me.

It's been going around in my local filmmaking circle. Folks here seem to think that the Canon still cameras is the wave of the future, the next digital cinema camera. I don't think it's a bad camera for indie projects, in fact, i think it's great, but on razor tight broadcast deadlines on long form projects, you have to transcode and sync the footage to external sound... Frankly, I'd rather get stuff shot on the Panasonic AvcIntra cameras that can record better sound, and I don't have to transcode everything before I work with it, than to have footage shot on the 7D, and have producers walk in and ask "why is it taking so long?" On a 3-5 day deadline for half hour broadcast projects, I won't touch the Canons.



www.strypesinpost.com

You miss the look of film Tania? Get yourself one 'O dese:



Most stunning film look footage I have seen since...film. The 5D's not bad either, but the 7D is less than half the price!!

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I agree and I understand the camera wasn't initially designed for our needs. The picture is indeed good so now I just have a problem to solve. I have to try this download and hopefully my problems will be solved.

[www.apple.com]