Helicopter shoots

Hi Guys,
I've been given the exciting and challenging job of shooting from a chopper next week using my Sony PMW EX1. I'm shooting NTSC and either 1080/60i or 720/30p.
Its my first time doing something like this and i'm really anxious about screwing up the shot by not using the right shutter speed. We're gonna be flying low to the ocean and rain forests. Does anyone have any advise on shutter speed when moving quickly? And does it relate to whether i'm shooting 1080/60i or 720/30p?

Thanks for your help folk.
Looking forward to hearing back from you.

Dom Locher

Common wisdom would be to use the highest shutter speed possible. However, the XDCam is not that great at all for fast action, much less low-flying pictures over water and trees, even in the 35Mb/s mode.

But, even more important for heli shooting is the mount, the bird, and the pilot. Even more important than all of that is SAFETY (yep, yelling that out loud).

Seriously man, it takes a lot of knowledge and experience to do heli shooting. You need to be asking yourself questions like how good is the pilot, what are the limitations on the helicopter (especially weight and speed), what mount are you using, who's going to install it and are they experienced in its operation, where is the sun, what direction is the wind blowing, where might there be crosswinds/downwinds, what is the air temperature, how long can you stay airborne, how often do you need to refuel, are you and all gear and all other passengers insured, etc etc etc etc.?

If I were the producer knowing that you'd never done this before, I'd be verrrrry concerned. Not trying to turn you off, but be totally aware that it is all very complex and potentially even dangerous for the uninitiated. So, worry about that stuff first, and then your camera and shutter speed later.

Post some more specifics about the above to put everyone's mind at ease, then you'll get some better advice.

check out dvxuser.com if you haven't already. These are videographers and cinematographers from around the world chat it up there. There even has been a few threads on helicopter filming.
I am not say thing place isn't a good resource, dvxuser is a great one as well.

[www.dvxuser.com]

Good luck and be safe!

Oh dear Dom - I would be cursing your name on every shot!!!

I hope you will be using at very least a Steadicam!!!

Unless the footage is to be "wobble-vision-shakycam" then tell them to hire a proper giro-mounted Heli-cam crew and you sit in as DoP

I've just watched through 2 hours of helicopter footage which the client "skimped" on cost - result? Well I've managed to SmoothCam about 28 seconds worth and the rest is junk!!!!

>insert curses of the cameraman's name who said he could<

Total waste of flying time - the upshot is that the proper crew could have got what we needed in half the time and the quality of the footage would have been useable.

>more profanities aimed quite obviously at aforementioned client/camerman<


If you need smooth footage then you really should not be shooting from a helicopter without a proper rig.

But if you are the only option - shoot a faster frame rate and high shutter speed to minimise the blur and you might be able to rescue a shot or 2 with smoothcam later.

Although too high a shutter speed can mean you need to add in Motion Blur in post as it can look a bit weird; as your subconscious expects to see motion blur to make things look natural.


>insert curses of the cameraman who also didn't get enough cut-aways...<


Good luck.


PS the use of a Cinesaddle might help as the EX1 isn't too large.



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

We have a cheapo rig that we use when shooting offroad racing that basically mounts the camera to the roof of the chopper (and of course the camo gets seriously tied to the chopper too) It's not fancy, it's home made, but it takes out the shudder and stops the camera falling on the competitors.

You really need a mount. Really.

Otherwise, a shwem is great... [www.trademe.co.nz]
[www.splashbroadcast.com]

Did a shoot from a little r-22 the other day with EX-1 shutter 1000th when hovering the shots were just fine.

Ben,

I know that your advice to use a Steadicam was well intentioned, however it is a bad idea if you are suggesting that it be worn by the operator.

I own and use a Steadicam rig - a real Steadicam, not the little baby ones. It would be extremely dangerous to use a conventional Steadicam in a helicopter. So much so that Steadicam specifically mention this in their training stuff. The rig would become uncontrollable. I guess if the rig was somehow attached to the chopper directly without having a human operator being involved that might be ok.

All the best,

Harry.

Newptfot - what about when you were moving? How did that stuff go?

Yeah I hear ya Harry - I've not shot myself from a helicopter with a Steadicam - however I know guys that DO use theirs and they bring back pretty decent stuff - certainly a lot better than without.

I haven't actually seen their setup so I couldn't tell you how hard or dangerous it is... they may well be attached on a door mount. I will ask next time I have a beer with them.



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Thanks for all your input folks!

Its really made me realise how important some form of rig is up there, i've spoken to the produder who now promises to have something in place for me which is good to know! As for choosing between 1080/60i and 1080/30p I think i'll go with 60i as when I did tests from a fast moving car today it seemed to turn out best. I know there's a few progressive die hards out there but wouldn't you all agree that for fast action filming like from a chopper that filming at 1080/60i is the way to go? As for the shutter speed the faster doesn't always equal the better option as it looks really jumpy am i right?, so would anyone agree that my shutter range would be between 50 - 500? Any solid advise here?

Dom

I've had some very acceptable results on our helicoptor shoots without using a stabilizing device. If you overcrank by shooting 720p60p with a good helicoptor and pilot who is experienced with video shoots, you can undercrank the footage in FCP and then add a stablizing filter if necessary. Results can look like you used a gyro mount.

Thanks Tom,
I'm using MXM express 34 adapters in my EX1 instead of the overprices SXS cards by Sony. The limitations are that i cant overcrank higher than 720p/48. What are your thoughts on shooting 1080/60i instead?

Cheers mate
Dom

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I know there's a few progressive die hards out there but wouldn't you all agree that for fast action filming like from a chopper that filming at 1080/60i is the way to go?

Unequivocally no! You never choose to shoot interlaced or progressive based on what looks better. You choose based on your delivery format. If you're delivering 1080i60 (like for reality television, just to pick one example), then you shoot 1080i60. If you're delivering 1080p24, then you shoot 1080p24. These are not creative decisions; they're technical decisions.

And as for your shutter, you should never, ever change it from 180° unless you're going for a specific artistic look.

Every helicopter shot you've ever seen in a motion picture or dramatic television show has been shot at 24 frames a second with a 180° shutter.

Hi Tom
Good to know, so you would use the ND filter maintain the Apeture rather than changing the shutter from 180? My camera (sony ex1) seems to loose its sharpness when an ND filter is switched on.. Annoying as hell!!

Cheers
Dom

Not necessarily. If you're shooting from a helo, you're basically going to be focusing at infinity, so depth of field isn't going to factor into things. You can stop the aperture down as far as you need to to control the exposure, rather than keeping the aperture open and using ND.

But never change your shutter speed. Ever. Ever ever ever ever ever. Nothing ruins a shot faster than a short or long shutter. World-class DPs shooting on the Genesis for the first time have ruined whole setups by opening up to a 360° shutter in order to gain another stop of exposure and stretch fading daylight. It benefits nobody, because even if you get the shot, you're either going to release it with appallingly streaky motion blur, or you're just going to reshoot it on another day anyhow.

Tell you what. Do some tests. Shoot some ordinary indoor scenes with actors walking around and talking at different shutter angles. Actually, now that I think of it, I don't know if the EX1 has an angle read-out or not; probably not, so you'll have to do math instead. Shoot a scene at 1/48 as usual, then switch to 1/60 and have the actors run through the scene again. (And by "actors" here I obviously mean two interns and an assistant, since this is just testing.) Then change it to 1/24 and shoot the scene again. Then change it to, I dunno, 1/125 or whatever. When you watch these scenes back, you'll see instantly how changing the shutter angle ? i.e., the shutter speed ? affects the motion quality of the shot.

There is a time and a place to shoot a short shutter. (Never a long one, though.) But like everything else, that choice has to be motivated, otherwise it's conspicuous and distracting.

In conclusion, lemme put it this way. You should no more change the shutter angle on your camera for no reason than you show throw CTB filters in front of your lights for no reason. See what I mean?

Hey Tom,
Good advise!!!
So i've done some tests using people walking on the street and cars from my window, it looks like 24p could be a little slow for moving objects and at 48 a little quick and 48 limits me to shooting in 720 mode as apposed to 1080. I tried shooting 1080/30p and it was nice quality but very 'video' looking compared to 24p. The editor who will be working on this job after i shoot it has said shoot 1080/24p but he's not the one dealing first hand with fast moving ground beneath me. I'm totally with you on the shutter speed remaining locked off at 50(180). Could i stretch it to 60? Yes my camera does do angles.
The only trouble is that with my camera I cant over crank it to 48 unless its in 720 mode, the output will be a series of Plasma/LCD tv's playing the footage into restaurants over america, I live in Sydney Australia are you based in LA? Would 720 be large enough for plasma or should I shoot at 1080/24? And finally just to really chew your ear off, what are your thoughts on shooting 30p (both 1080 & 720 ).
Tom your a legend, very helpful.
Thanks
Dom

I'm totally lost. Are you talking about overcranking the frame rate to shoot slow motion, or changing the shutter angle to reduce motion blur?

Two quick responses to your specific questions:

1. If you were asked to shoot 1080p24, shoot 1080p24. If you get hired to shoot a specific format, and you come in with some oddball, not-what-was-asked-for, you probably won't get beaten up and left bleeding in an alley. But I wouldn't totally rule it out, either. Especially in Australia. (Hi, Jude! Don't hit me in my face!)

2. The only reason you should ever shoot 30p is if you're overcranking for a very slight slow-motion effect. The only way to play back footage at 30p is on a computer screen, where you're better off at 24p anyway.

(Note that others may have different opinions. I speak not the gospel truth, just the truth as I happen to see it.)

Sorry to not to be clear as i could have been, I was referring to overcranking the frame rate to shoot slow motion.

1. This is true, but as an editor myself I know that you can output footage to required format from a range of shooting formats. Anyway, better to be safe than sorry...

2. FCP can handle 30p just fine right? Then the editor could then easily output it as a TV safe frame rate. The only reason i'm holding onto the 30p option is that it could really work in my favour to have tad more smoothness.

I tend to believe that anyone on LAFCPUG knows what they're talking about...I'm sure you do..I hope you do

Thanks for all the input, gospel or not.

One more thing as we're onto talking the gospel of all things video.
I've always been slightly confused by the following.
One can shoot interlaced PAL for example at 1080/50i as well as 1080/25i. Does 50i represent twice the amount of information being recorded as 25i? The reason i'm confused is that when we were talking about shooting 720/24p you were saying that recording at 48p would be 'slow motion'. But shooting 1080/50i as apposed to 25i isn't shooting slow motion am I right?

Its been bugging me for a long time..I hope it makes some sense to you...I owe you one..

Dom Locher

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I know that you can output footage to required format from a range of shooting formats

To a point. It would not be possible, for example, to take 1080i60 material and shoehorn it into a 1080p24 show without running it through heavy motion estimation, which produces results that range between barely acceptable and totally screwed up.

One of the major downsides of the NLE revolution is this persistent impression that any moving picture footage can be intercut with any other moving picture footage. It's just not that simple.

Quote

FCP can handle 30p just fine right? Then the editor could then easily output it as a TV safe frame rate.

Again, that depends. If you're talking about frame-blending 30p back to 24p, then it's extremely difficult to get acceptable results from that. If you mean shooting overcrank at 30 frames a second, then sure, that's easy. I'm really anal retentive when talking about stuff like that; I tend to catch myself saying things like "we'll shoot 30 for 24" or "we'll roll 48 for 24" or whatever when I'm talking about overcranking. Because saying "we'll shoot 30p" is confusing. That's just me, though. I'm a weirdo.

The thing to remember is that whenever you shoot overcrank, the finished product is going to look like 24. It's going to have the motion quality of 24 (assuming your shutter was 180°, obviously). It'll just look like the action took place more slowly than it really did. This can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on what you're going for creatively.

For instance, you could do a fast pass at 240 frames per second, and it would come out looking like a slow crane shot from a 500-foot crane. Again, this may or may not be what you want creatively.

Quote

One can shoot interlaced PAL for example at 1080/50i as well as 1080/25i.

The terms "50i" and "25i" are confusing, and have different meanings based on context. Sometimes "25i" is used as a synonym for 50i, while other times "25i" is used to mean 25psf.

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The reason i'm confused is that when we were talking about shooting 720/24p you were saying that recording at 48p would be 'slow motion'.

Let's pretend we're talking about film. Film projectors always run at 24 frames per second, period, no exceptions. (Yes, there are exceptions, but I'm keeping it simple, Douglas Trumbull, so you butt out!) Film cameras can run at any frame rate you please. You can run the camera at 300 frames a second if you want ? but the resulting film is going to be played back at 24 frames per second. If you run the camera motor faster than the projector motor, the end result in the theater will be slow motion. Contrariwise, if you run the camera motor slower than the projector motor, the action on the screen will look faster than it really was in real life. (This trick was used all the time in the 70s for filming car chases. A sixty mile-an-hour car chase shot at 18 frames a second ends up looking like a 90 mile-an-hour car chase. Put the camera on the fender lower than eye level, and the illusion is magnified even further.)

Video is like film to the extent that it always plays back at a constant frame rate. The difference is that you might be working in 24 for delivery in 60i, or you might be working in 25 for delivery in 50i. Or you might be working in 60p for delivery in 60p, though there are few outlets in the US that broadcast 720p60 so that's rare. Point is, whatever your frame rate is, it's constant, regardless of the speed at which you run your camera.

If you go out and shoot at 48 frames a second, you're going to have to play it back at some standard frame rate, probably 24 frames a second. You're running your camera faster than your "projector" (television, in this case), so you end up with slow motion. On the other hand, if you conformed your 48 fps material to 60p, then it would look faster than real life, because you'd be running your camera slower than your "projector."

This is overcranking and undercranking in a nutshell. In real life it can be more complicated, when you start talking about field-based formats versus frame-based formats, but that's the short version.

Nice explanation Jeff. Saves me having to fly over there and hit you in your face. Again.

My beautiful face thanks you.

>The terms "50i" and "25i" are confusing, and have different meanings based on context.
>Sometimes "25i" is used as a synonym for 50i, while other times "25i" is used to mean 25psf.

I take 25i to be the same as 50i (frame rate vs field rate). But to mention interlaced for a progressive frame (or progressive segmented frame), would get me on a wild goose chase trying to find where the other field went to.



www.strypesinpost.com

THANKS JEFF, GREAT HELP! I'VE LEARNT WHAT I SHOULD HAVE LEARNT YEARS AGO IN THE SPACE OF 24 HOURS. THANKYOU. I'M GONNA CRANK UP TO 30 FROM A 24P SETTING. GENIUS.

CHEERS
OVER AND OUT.

DOM LOCHER

I think that was sent from the chopper. Very noisy in there lol.

I C A N T H E A R Y O U

Bon Voyage!



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