OT: Arri Alexa records to ProRes

So last night at the DGA Arri officially revealed the Alexa digital camera system. Of notice to FCP peeps is that one of the recording options is straight to ProRes (4x4 and HQ) via two onboard SxS cards. It also passes a FCP XML for metadata. They're calling it "Direct-to-Edit". Pretty slick.

- Justin Barham -

OMG. a manufacturer who thought through the entire process. Go Arri.

That is great but its being compared to the RED, so i am guessing its about the same price point.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

It's a bit more expensive at around 60K American. But I'm just interested in the workflow.

- Justin Barham -

Yeah, it's an Arri. Of course it's expensive. It's just so great to see someone who has thought about what happens AFTER the shoot. And wow, remember when $100k was standard?

Mike Curtis over at the PVC was there, he has some good random meeting notes from the presentation. Check out the Pro Video Coalition site. Nice that more and more devices (Aja KiPro and now this new Arri) are shooting ProRes. Cuts out the middle man but kind of sucks if you are editing on AVID.

Dan

I was at the launch at the DGA. Yeah, darn impressive camera plus whats cool is that it's modular somewhat like the Red or will be modular when it ships. So...chances are you might not have to shoot to expensive SxS cards when doing ProRes. The images coming out of the camera were impressive. What was even cooler, was they shot the crowd in the lobby right before the presentation, handed the card off to an editor who then banged out a piece and played it for the audience.

The Alexa will be at the SuperMeet and we will show footage and hopefully (I've asked) shoot the audience and bang out an edit and show it on the big screen.

I'm not a shooter but they sure got the workflow right. And understand the cams on display at the DGA were prototypes so who knows the changes are coming when it ships. And you got to love the simplicity of this thing. A few buttons and the buttons do only one thing for the most part. Not a lot of sub menus to dig through as far as I could tell.

Michael Horton
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I'll be curious to see how many productions just end up using ProRes 4x4 as an online codec, bypassing RAW altogether.

- Justin Barham -

Arri to the rescue -- finally :-)

Here are the crucial details:

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Arri Alexa: the camera has the ability to [b
dual record[/b] to a compressed format and to its higher-res, 2k ARRIRAW counterpart at the same time, allowing you to rapidly edit in the field and bring the big, high quality footage online later. The ALEXA also boasts a super 35 CMOS Bayer sensor promising 13.5 stops of dynamic range.]

Now I can edit in FCP 5.04 with manageable size files and output for easy to match 2k later. Plus the Arri has that beautiful spinning mirror shutter that captures full 24 frames per second without the rolling shutter of the prosumer digital cameras that have been parading as professional gear.

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Now I can edit in FCP 5.04

Missed the "ProRes" part, I guess.

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prosumer digital cameras that have been parading as professional gear

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

The whole ProRes-sidecar thing is cool, it really is. Alexa looks very sexy. But if I were in a decision-making position, it'd have to have some massive advantages over Red to make me consider subjecting myself to an ARRIRAW workflow.

filmman Wrote:
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> Now I can edit in FCP 5.04 with manageable size
> files and output for easy to match 2k later. Plus
> the Arri has that beautiful spinning mirror
> shutter that captures full 24 frames per second
> without the rolling shutter of the prosumer
> digital cameras that have been parading as
> professional gear.

Can you edit ProRes in FCP 5?

My concern is with feature editing, where ProRes HQ is usually too "heavy." So you're talking about a transcode to a smaller ProRes (LT, Proxy, etc.) before editing. Faster then debayering RAW, but still a true ProRes proxy option would have made things easier for long-form offline.

It's pretty cool though, and certainly emphasizes a future for FCP. I hope they do a DNxHD option as well in the future.

- Justin Barham -

Why do you take it personal, Jeff? I wasn't addressing you

Why not edit in SD and then output to 2k for conforming and finishing at a post house.

I'm not technical so it should be possible if the camera can record in dual file modes, let one file be a lowly SD. Is that possible to do?

What are the options for Alexa files? I know there is ProRez 444 and ProRez HQ ... whatever. Obviously these I can't do in 5.04; but what about Uncompressed 10-bit and SD for editing in FCP -- is that an option?

Well, I'm sure many producers will shoot with Arri's from now on, and the Red camera with all its problems (purple lips, etc) is going to be used by indie filmmakers with 10 lbs 35mm adapters hanging on their zoom lenses

I'm not going to buy a $60k camera. I already have the original Arri 2c that was used in WWII. LOL It still works and when they're doing 20k telecines, I'll revamp my movies again for pink-ray technology (or whatever they're going to call it).

Actually filmman - to be strictly accurate, the Arri IIC was not used in WWII. It came out in 1964.

[www.cinematechnic.com]

Ah, yes. Thanks, Mike. I get carried away. The article was a good one. It's been a while since I read about the Arri 35mm MOS cameras. I used to be on top of it when I was working in the 70s in Europe. You're right, the Arri I came out in 1937 according to this article.

My Arri 2c camera must have been manufactured in the mid or late 60s then. I also like shooting with the Arri BLs.



The new Arri Alexa is going to become the workhorse of the digital industry ... even though it's more expensive than the Red, because the rental houses are going to prefer it -- more reliability, better factory back-up, more accessories, etc. No one is going to match Arri technology....

I'd not count Arri's eggs before they've hatched though. You're right it's going to be a great camera for many people, but everything else waits to be seen.

Graeme

The camera looks very nice and is a welcome addition to the acquisition arsenal of options. Having said that:

filmman Wrote:
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> Arri to the rescue -- finally :-)
> The ALEXA also boasts a super 35 CMOS
> Bayer sensor promising 13.5 stops of dynamic
> range.]


I will believe it when I see it. They promised the D20/21 a lot of dynamic range too but the production models delivered less. Same thing with RED. On paper everything is possible.

filmman Wrote:
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> Plus the Arri has that beautiful spinning mirror
> shutter that captures full 24 frames per second
> without the rolling shutter of the prosumer
> digital cameras


Well, only one of the models has the physical shutter. The other two models will have the same rolling shutter problems as any CMOS camera. I guess that will make them prosumer
But if you want to nitpick like that, Arri has cheapen out just by going CMOS Bayer. Why didn't they stay CCD like Panavision?
Hey, Arri has entered the "prosumer" market.

filmman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>that have been parading as
> professional gear.

Right! Because what makes a professional is his gear and not his skills.

Physical mirror shutters have the same "rolling shutter problem" as any rolling shutter - just slightly out of focus. They still record a split image on a non-synced flash, and still lean things over to the side on a pan. The difference is that the effective roll speed of a mirror shutter is faster than the rolling shutter on most digital cameras.

FYI - both CMOS and CCD can have global or rolling shutter. It's NOT that CMOS is always rolling and CCD is always global. There is nothing inherently bad or good about either technology.

Panavision do indeed use a CCD on their Genesis, but with a RGB Stripe Colour Filter Array (CFA) rather than the demonstrably superior Bayer Pattern CFA. The Sony F35 (same sensor as Genesis) shows considerable luma moire vertically (rather like the link skipping moire you get on the 5D2, but not as bad) and horizontal chroma moire as the three channels, R,G,B never line up at high levels of detail. Both of these lead to a sub-1080p measured resolution.

Graeme

We're fortunate to have real expert clarifications of these technologies. Once again I'm humbled by the degree of knowledge on this website. I guess digital camera technology will never be as wholesome as 35mm film. Film hasn't changed much in a century but digital video is a lot more complex.

I come back to the realization that maybe there will never be one digital camera for all forms of display. For example, some of the cheapest cameras have the sharpest image on Youtube. And the 60i looks the best on standard TV sets (to my eyes).

Graeme is also being modest in not mentioning the improvements in timing of the new RED MX sensor. Apparently it's getting close to a film shutter. At least in skew. I'm not sure how the Alexa compares in that regard.

- Justin Barham -

Nobody knows on the Alexa yet. Yes, M-X is improved over M too.

Graeme

Well, that sure as hell didn't take long.

[reduser.net]

It sounds, reading between the lines a bit, that the intention is to provide a variety of low-resolution tap modules that record an alternate format with metadata. The first one's H.264, which seems weird for offline editing, but the built-in encrypted wireless transmission is pretty sweet for video village.

The obvious next step would be to offer a ProRes-to-CF module and a DNxHD-to-CF module.

As a side note ? does Jim ever freakin' sleep?

There may be a few "Jims" that do the posting, but Milli Vanilli is real.



www.strypesinpost.com

Using H.264 as an offline is a stretch. But it can be converted to ProRes or DNxHD. I might be willing to trade the transcoding time for footage periodically arriving via FTP.

All these new workflow possibilities... My head is spinning. It's gonna be a dream for DITs.

- Justin Barham -

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Using H.264 as an offline is a stretch.

After talking to a few people, I'm under the impression that this is not the intent. This proxy module is a wireless video tap, pure and simple. I think we're going to see proxy modules that record in other formats for instant offlining. Maybe those will have an audio input, so you don't have to go to the trouble of syncing your rushes with your location sound.

Some systems have no problems with h264 for offline though. And remember the words used were "the first of which" - which implies....

Also, a though could be that copying a very small file (highly compressed h264 suitable for streaming) and then transcoding to something else may even be quicker than copying a larger "ready to edit" file to begin with..... (Especially if over a network rather than on a direct connection)

Graeme

So is what you mean Graeme that could transcode to prores LT which would be fine for editing then online back to orginal r3d. That makes lot of sense. If want to view stuff while happening, could on ipad or labtop with streaming then make quick dallies and then if need to edit transcode to prores LT since small lite version and assuming since you guys make this timecode and audio well all match up. Makes perfect sense to me since guessing things like ipad and others really wouldn't work with streaming prores. And if the transcode is indeed short for something like LT sounds like the perfect combo, or am i missing something here.

Things like iPad and iPod touch have in-built support for h264 decode which makes it a useful codec for those purposes. I don't know the full details yet, but I'm suggesting there may be some advantages to h264 that we have not thought about yet.

Graeme

Avid MC 5 will support QT (including ProRes) natively. So that more or less solves that problem for Avid editing.

- Justin Barham -