35mm > FCP > edit in SD > k2 DI > film out?

What the best work flow for a 35mm feature film production?

1) Shooting 50,000 ft of 35mm film (approximately 10 hours of film).
2) Lab develops film and sends SD files to editor electronically for FCP editing.
3) Editor needs 2k for film out.

What shall I ask the lab to supply the editor? First he needs the SD for logging and editing. Then he wants the bigger files. What should they be? 2k, 4k ?

Movie is straight forward story, no special effects.

hey vic.

is the editor doing the re-conform work? grading etc?
that's a bit unusual in my experience.
2 different hats, really.
the conform to 2k, grade & film out are normally handled by the lab, or a specialist house,
and they would have many recommendations.


are you asking for a friend or colleague?
if so it would save time & effort if they could get on board the discussion.


cheers,
nick

Put the editor in touch with the transfer house and get out of the way. The director does not traditionally involve himself in that level of detail, because the director has a different area of expertise.

Short version: The one-light gets transferred as DV or something, often with burned-in tape timecode and edge code. The editor sends the transfer house an EDL of his timeline. Transfer house does shot-by-shot color correction of just the selects, and transfers to the finishing format.

I really appreciate the response, as this work flow will be a first for me. I'm only going to DP this feature film. It's going to be a SAG movie.

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Nick wrote: is the editor doing the re-conform work? grading etc? that's a bit unusual in my experience. 2 different hats, really. the conform to 2k, grade & film out are normally handled by the lab, or a specialist house, and they would have many recommendations.

No, the editor asked me regarding what he needed. He is working out of the East Coast, which is where the movie is being shot.

Normally, when I shoot my own movies, I use DeLuxe labs in Hollywood. So I go over there (ten minutes) and decide on what I want. Last time, I had them give me the standard one light, circled take 35mm work print. I didn't have time for dailies (shooting alone behind the camera and directing:-), so I looked at my dailies on the weekend.

The editor needs the digital dailies sent to him electronically as there is no lab in town where he is. He told me he will be editing in SD and the conform will take place later. I don't know who is going to do it, but I know he asked me if I wanted to use the colorist in Hollywood. I said, yes (though I've never used a colorist before, because I always worked on the Hazeltine with the timer, as you know > 35mm). So to answer your question, the editor is not going to do the conforming and grading, I guess.

But I think the editor would like to do a DI and print the 35mm from that at some point -- film out.

I suggested we do a 35mm print from a 35mm cut negative. He said the producers might want to do that for general release printing. But he said he doesn't know of any negative cutters who could get the film ready for 35mm printing, so I said I would do the negative cutting here in Hollywood. I've done a lot of negative cutting as I've worked off and on in film labs for years (developing negative, positive, optical printing, contact printing, etc.)

So we will probably do 35mm to 35mm printing as well, but I guess DI's are the way everybody is going these days. For movies with a lot of special effects this makes sense to me, but this movie is a romantic comedy -- well, they might want a special look.... I don't know too much about it yet, because I haven't even read the script yet. I'm just trying to get the work flow straight so I can set up the lab account correctly.

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Jeff Harrell wrote: Short version: The one-light gets transferred as DV or something, often with burned-in tape timecode and edge code. The editor sends the transfer house an EDL of his timeline. Transfer house does shot-by-shot color correction of just the selects, and transfers to the finishing format.

Thanks, Jeff. This tells me a bit more of how the work flow goes. The editor explained this to me on the phone. He has been doing digital editing for years so I couldn't grasp everything he told me -- I've not worked enough in FCP (by the way they will be using FCP -- probably the latest version).

I'm only the DP on this shoot. He asked me about what I wanted to do as a cinematographer, and that was nice of him, because I have only worked with timers before and I know that a good relationship between the DP and the timer is very valuable. So here now for the first time I'm going to be working with one of "you guys" :-) and I want to provide the editor with what he needs and I'd like to end up with a movie that I can be proud of as a DP. Of course, the director and I will work together on the look he wants and the style he wants. But then there is also the editor in this digital age, and I guess that opens up the collaboration between the three of us, plus I guess the sound recordist and the sound designer would also work with the editor to complete the finished movie. I only want to do my job correctly.

At the end, I will get the EDL so I can cut the negative. So thank you for the additional notation you mentioned regarding the timecode and the edge numbers.

>The editor needs the digital dailies sent to him electronically as there is no lab in town where he is

That means a Fed Ex box.

These days, the offline is usually done off Dvcpro HD as it is a light codec, so it works off almost any drive, and gives you substantially more resolution than DV, so you can gauge your offline cuts better, and storage is cheap.



www.strypesinpost.com

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strypes wrote: These days, the offline is usually done off Dvcpro HD as it is a light codec, so it works off almost any drive, and gives you substantially more resolution than DV, so you can gauge your offline cuts better, and storage is cheap.

That's Gerard, that's excellent. I've never used DVCPRO HD. I guess this codec isn't that much heavier than SD DV.

I will ask the editor if this will be good for him, because as I said earlier he will be using FCP.

I talked to the lab in NYC and apparently there isn't a standard work flow like with 35mm film.

So each editor gets to decide how they want to do it and the labs provide various formats. I'm really amazed at how messed up the digital work is with all these codecs. It's so much simpler with 35mm film. I've not had to deal with this until now. What I'm hearing by talking to the labs and post production studios is making me wonder just why digital editing has taken over so much.

I can understand it if there are a lot of special effects (and computer effects are so much simpler,) but for a standard film with a simple story line (like most films), 35mm film editing is much simpler, faster and even cheaper.

Vic ? we're talking about 35mm film editing.

Let's keep this on track. No "it was better in the old days" BS.

Offline editing for neg cut has been going on for ages. there's nothing new, and there are a million people out there who can talk you through it. Do it in HD or SD, whatever, track your keycodes like AVID has done since the last millenium, import flex files off a floppy and pretend Smells Like Teen Spirit is playing on the radio for the first time. Add in a DI out and all you're doing is using your edl/cut list to conform 2k scans of your film instead of cutting neg.
All the part AFTER the output of a cut list from FCP would be done at a properly equipped post house, the same way a film house would do your timing and prints for you.

It's not hard, it's not complicated. Lots of people know how to do this and there's not much to be gained from getting your 2k scans back if you don't know what to do with them.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

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Andrew Kines wrote: Do it in HD or SD, whatever, [color=#CC0000
track your keycodes[/color] like AVID has done since the last millenium, import flex files off a floppy and pretend Smells Like Teen Spirit is playing on the radio for the first time. Add in a DI out and all you're doing is using your edl/cut list to conform 2k scans of your film instead of cutting neg.]

1) What do you mean by "track your keycodes" like AVID?
2) "Import flex files off a floppy and pretend Smells Like Teen Spirit is playing on the radio for the first time." I don't use floppy discs anymore; but so you know how desperate I am to understand what you're talking about, I went to Youtube and listened to Smells Like Teen Spirit by Nirvana (I feel like the janitor dancing in the background). Here for your viewing pleasure is what I watched: video: [<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application]
3)

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Add in a DI out and all you're doing is using your edl/cut list to conform 2k scans of your film instead of cutting neg.

So let me get this straight: I send (or rather the editor gets to do it -- I just want to understand the process; I'm not doing the editing) I send the "edl/cut list" to the post house and they do the conforming. Ok, what is the edit list? Is it a special file? Or is it the SD or DVCPRO HD edit QT movie file of the finished movie?

Thanks for taking the time to explain this. I'm just trying to understand this. From what I hear on this forum I'm not planning to ever edit a 35mm feature like this. I edit on a Cinemonta 6 plate. I do it all in 35mm, using a workprint and do the negative cutting myself. But this project I'm only the DP and I don't have to deal with the editing. I just want to know what deal I'm making with the film lab and what the cost will be. In order to understand the cost, I need to know the work flow. Thanks for your help again.

Vic,

You may want to check out Apple's own workflow reference manual:

Final Cut Studio Workflows

It provides a good overview and is well-written. I found it to be quite informative.


-Dave

really this is a conversation for the editor and the producer,
and i reckon if you talk to them you will get most of your answers.

TELECINE

dont know about where you live, but here telecine to HD costs maybe twice as much as telecine to SD.

Gerard is correct: if you go HD, DVCProHD is a nice, easy codec to work with.
you can cut it on your G5!

also investigate telecine directly to file verses to tape and capture.
tape means having a very safe backup
HD tape & decks are more expensive so for SD work telecine to tape & capture might be preferable.
if you go to DV, it's very affordable.

KEYCODES

keycodes as you know are on the film, and would be used when neg-cutting
the tape & files only cary timecode & a reel#

in telecine the keycode can be read, and a log of keycode / timecode is made.
this is the flex file or ALE file,
often this is delivered on a floppy disk, but these days it's more common to get it put on your drive, or emailed to you.

you need CINEMA TOOLS to track the relationship between the timecode on the tape / file and the keycode on the film.

the Cinema Tools manual is a very good resource for info on working with film in the digital age.

if you are NOT doing an old fashioned neg-match & print, (see next section)
you do not need to track the keycode.
you only need to preovide an EDL to the lab

also most of neg cutters i used to know (almost none left) liked to create their own database and only wanted an EDL, so there may be no need for you or the editor to worry.



GRADING
Vic, you will be blown away with what you can do in a DI verses what you can do in a film grade.
it's not just red green & blue anymore.
incredible control of colours and tones,
and with power windows you can selectively fine tune different areas of the frame.
you can almost re-light the film.
talk to the lab / colourist about this.


cheers,
nick

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Nick Meyers wrote: in telecine the keycode can be read, and a log of keycode / timecode is made. this is the flex file or ALE file, often this is delivered on a floppy disk, but these days it's more common to get it put on your drive, or emailed to you.

This really helps me, Nick. I had read it (in bits and pieces) a long time ago but forgotten it, because I didn't use it even once in the last three years.

I wish I had known this the first time and only time I did the editing of a feature film (BUTTERFLIES IN THE WIND) in my own G5 and FCP 5.04 Studio. The telecine guy asked me if I wanted edgecode on my DVCAM tapes. I said no, thinking it was going to take time in the telecine process. I had never done digital editing before. So, all I had was time code and that meant I couldn't do negative cutting. I only released the movie as a DVD and didn't need to do a 35mm print anyway.

However, now I'm working as DP on an indie movie and I want to learn this process so next time I do one of my own movies I can go through the whole process with some knowledge.

I'm thinking that the DVCAM tapes from the telecine will carry both the timecode and the edgecode information. Am I right on this? Because then I would be able to generate an EDL list for negative cutting, right? And Cinema Tools would generate this EDL list? So I have to drop the edited movie as a QT file into Cinema Tools and then export an EDL?

Since I've never done this, I hope you can tell me for future reference if this is all correct. I'm thinking that I should perhaps do a short movie, say about 5 minutes, just to learn the process. I can take some 35mm footage, telecine it onto DVCAM and go through the whole process of editing in FCP, and outputting an EDL list and then doing the DI and the output to 35mm film.

I like the note regarding the Colorist. Thanks, Nick. Once again you nailed this one for me.

"I'm thinking that the DVCAM tapes from the telecine will carry both the timecode and the edgecode information. Am I right on this?"

no.
read what i wrote again,
and the CT manual. you can download it from apple very easily.

keycode can be BURNT IN to the image,
but it is not "machine readable" so no keycode info in EDLs, which can only carry timecode & reel# anyway.

flip through the CT manual. it's good.


nick

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Nick Meyers wrote: in telecine the keycode can be read, and a log of keycode / timecode is made. this is the flex file or ALE file, often this is ... emailed to you.

Ok, so the SD files are made from the telecined 35mm footage and the "flex file" is emailed to the editor.

The "flex file" has the logs of both the 35mm film edge numbers and the movie "timecode" numbers side by side.

So the EDL file will be printed out at the end of the digital edit and the negative cutter will receive this file as a text file. He will then print out this file and manually match the edge numbers on the 35mm film to the timecode numbers listed in the "flex file" -- is this how it is?

flex file is entered into CinemaTools,
building up a database of timecode verses keycode (and/or other things)

at end of the digital edit a CUT LIST is made from FCP (which looks into the CT database) and that is printed out and given to the neg matcher.

OR a neg matcher will use the flex files in their own software to track TC vs KC.
no printing out and manually tracking... this is the computer age.

do you do the neg matching your self?


if i was in LA, you could take me out to lunch, and we'd a have a good long discussion about all this.
but if you keep asking me questions with out reading the manual i'll fly over there myself and hit you around the head with the it!!!


nick

Thanks, Nick. When you come to California to edit a movie for me, we will definitely have many lunches :-)

I spent about half an hour just now going through the FCP manuals V. 1, 2, & 3, and I looked at all the other manuals -- nothing about Cinema Tools. Now, I know it's somewhere in there, but where? :-)

I know, Cinema Tools is in the Tutorials under the info menu located in FCP, but again I might end up spending another hour or two trying to find one sentence that describes what happens when I "import" a flex file into it.

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flex file is entered into CinemaTools, building up a database of timecode versus keycode

This will be truly fascinating for me to watch; just how it does it. Is it like you drag the flex file into Cinema Tools and voila! the database is created? So this is to be done before start of editing? I like that.

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at end of the digital edit a CUT LIST is made from FCP (which looks into the CT database) and that is printed out and given to the neg matcher.

At the end of the digital edit how does FCP look into the Cinema Tools database? Does it do it automatically? Without my telling it to?

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OR a neg matcher will use the flex files in their own software to track TC vs KC.

I don't have my own "software" (I'm assuming some additional software, not FCP).

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do you do the neg matching your self?

Yes, I'm also a negative cutter.

What does a CUT LIST look like?

cinema tools has it's own manual,
you will find it online as i mentioned before.

Vic,


Nick Meyers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cinema tools has it's own manual,
> you will find it online as i mentioned before.

Nick is trying to (kindly) suggest that you read some of the Apple documentation (Cinema Tools manual) for more info about this. I mentioned the FCS workflow doc, as well, but you may have not thought it worthwhile.

Apple's documentation is excellent, not only providing detailed information about the tools themselves but general information about film and video (more so on the video side).

So, the Apple documentation is easily found here:

Final Cut Studio Resources
(Scroll down and go to the "Online Documentation" section of the left column.)

To make it a bit quicker, here are the specific links:

Final Cut Pro 7 Help
PDF file versions of the manuals (recommended) are accessible via links under each manual's description. Final Cut Studio: Workflows has general info about film workflows (and others) when used with Final Cut Studio.

Cinema Tools 4.5 User Manual
The answers to all of your follow-up questions for Nick are pretty much answered here.

For a more technical treatment of the "Film -> Video Edit -> Film Out" process, here's a good reference: Film Technology in Post Production, Second Edition.

-----

Of course, you should find out which version of FCP the editor plans on using, in order to use the proper references, file formats, etc.

If possible, you should test the entire workflow before actual production begins.

Good luck with your project! Let us know how things turn out, if you have the time and interest...


-Dave

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Yes, I'm also a negative cutter.
What does a CUT LIST look like?

---------------------------
Yes, I'm also a surgeon.
What does a SCALPEL look like?
-----------------------------
Yes, I'm also a Politician.
What does a SEX SCANDAL look like?
----------------------------
Yes, I'm also a bull.
What does a CHINA SHOP look like?
----------------------------

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

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D-Mac wrote: Good luck with your project! Let us know how things turn out, if you have the time and interest...

Thank you, I appreciate it, D! I will definitely report back after I complete the assignment. I will be thanking everyone who helped me with this thread, especially Nick Meyers, who always goes the extra mile for me in describing the whole process. He knows I don't mean any disrespect by the way I ask questions.

Of course, I have done negative cutting before; but that's using my own CUT LIST, which I write down by hand, while going through each roll cut by cut and entering the edge numbers at the beginning and at the end of every cut.

I just wanted to know what a digital CUT LIST looked like, as I've never used them.

I guess the digital cut list must be like an excel document.... I don't think there is an automated way for splices to be made in a negative cutting machine -- although I've heard inventors talk about such gadgets.

What I really needed to know was the work flow so I could estimate the cost of the film lab relevant to a process which I had never used. I don't need to know the nitty-gritty of the technical aspects of what's involved.

At this point if time permits I might get to reading all the manuals regarding how Cinema Tools works in FCP 5.04. I won't be involved with the digital cutting process at all; however, I need to know the work flow so I can determine the cost of which work flow is chosen and what I'm going to be looking at during the rushes with the director and producer of the film. I need something to go by when there is a question regarding the shot. That too.

If I can't find the information regarding the work flow, I will have to consider the 35mm editing route, which I'm familiar with. So in the end, I might have to recommend a digital master made from an IP of the completed movie. Of course, we will have to do scene by scene color correction on the IP and the colorist will have to work with the IP instead of the DI.

Thanks again for your help.

"What I really needed to know was the work flow so I could estimate the cost of the film lab relevant to a process which I had never used. I don't need to know the nitty-gritty of the technical aspects of what's involved."


talk to the lab.
& read the manual. not the whole thing, obviously. skim it. you'll find the parts you need.

"So in the end, I might have to recommend a digital master made from an IP of the completed movie."

as a favour to you i advise you not to do that.
they will think a lot less of you for telling them BS just cos you dont know how the neg is cut after a digital edit.
(which would have to happen anyway to make an iP)
tell them the truth, that you haven't been down that path before and are looking forward to it.
its NOT YOUR JOB to be advising on post paths or costs thereof.

get the editor in on this conversation.


nick

the bizzare thing is you'd be recommending the process you don't understand.
to make an iP you'd need to track the keycode.

to make a DI you can ignore keycode entirely and rely solely on timecode, reel# & EDLs

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Nick Meyers wrote: (1) the bizzare thing is you'd be recommending the process you don't understand. to make an iP you'd need to track the keycode. (2) to make a DI you can ignore keycode entirely and rely solely on timecode, reel# & EDLs

"track the keycode" = work flow #1
"timecode, reel # & EDLs" = work flow #2

Ok. Got it.

You seem to be looking at both workflows as if they they provide the exact same output. Theoretically you still get your release prints either way, but you could just as well be drawing on film stock with crayons and passing that off for theatrical distribution.

That said, one of the two workflows, gives you unparalleled flexibility and is industry standard today (and hint: it's not the one you're advertising), the other is an antiquated workflow that is cumbersome by today's standard.

That also said, it's not your job to recommend post production workflows. Your job as a DoP is to shoot and make pictures. Let the editor sort it out with the post house.



www.strypesinpost.com

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strypes wrote: one of the two workflows, gives you unparalleled flexibility and is industry standard today

that being the time code, reel # & EDL work flow -- ok. It's good to know this. It will help me in negotiating work flows when the time arises. Also it helps me reach certain technical conclusions regarding the state of the industry these days as filmmakers are considering the Arri Alexa versus 35mm Arri or Panavision film production work flows for theatrical release. Inch by inch I'm getting my OP question answered. You're a very clear-headed editor, Gerard. Thanks for coming back with a few more comments.

hey vic, check this out:

[www.kenstone.net]