ACE Blog Slams FCP

I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed here yet. It's certainly been fodder for the mailing lists.

http://ace-filmeditors.blogspot.com/2010/05/end-of-final-cut-for-me.html

"I?ve had it with Final Cut. After editing three documentaries with enormous amounts of footage, enduring multiple crashes every day, with media that had to be reconnected every time, waiting for shots to render at every turn and losing many edits to unexplainable saving miscues, I finally told the producer of my upcoming editing job ? another documentary with enormous amounts of footage ? that it had to be ported to Avid from Final Cut Pro."

- Justin Barham -

I think it hasn't been discussed here because it's just not that interesting. Editor has bad assistant(s), operator errors go unfixed, editor has a bad time, editor gets frustrated. It's a dog-bites-man story.

People have their comfort zones. Some are comfortable with FCP, some with Avid...and they can't TAKE having to use the other machine. I know Avid editors who flounder in FCP and really muck things up. And FCP editors who are lost in Avid MC. But then we all know that there are those that can go back and forth and do just fine (Walter Murch...me...).

So chalk it up to inexperience on either his part, or his assistants, or the tech managing the system. This is why you hire the talent...you need the support staff if you want things to run smoothly. And this is why you need to leave your use of the OTHER tools behind. Some people just can't let go.

Fine...let him use Avid MC. It is a great editing application, especially lately. I am LOVING it. I do miss FCP though...


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

There are definitely flaws with FCP, and we've mentioned it quite a bit on the forum, but they're not show stoppers. And there are also many things that are great with FCP.

> I finally relented when a job came along that was too good to refuse, thinking that a tool is a tool
>and I could probably learn how to work on it in a couple of days.

This speaks a lot. Especially since it takes more than a couple of days to properly use a system. Any system. Even for professionals with experience on various platforms.



www.strypesinpost.com

There is an easy 2-word explanation to this Justin and the reason why we don't waste time discussing this:

USER ERROR

A good craftsman NEVER blames his tools.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

>I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed here yet. It's certainly been fodder for the mailing lists.

Yes, exactly, Justin, most of those here who might care enough to comment are already across those mailing lists and already commented, if so inclined, earlier in the week. To intentionally try to stir up discussion here as you are doing now, in an unashamedly pro FCP community somewhat after the fact, might come across a bit trollish despite your probably altruistic intent, so don't be surprised if some of the reply's you get are terse or dismissive.
Enjoy the discussion.
Andy

I disagree with most of the diatribe in the blog.
If you want a headache, crank up Adobe CS4 on a PC,
and you'll see (in my opinion), a really wonky editing platform.

I respect his opinion, but I agree to disagree with this blog.



JustinB Wrote:
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> I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed here yet.
> It's certainly been fodder for the mailing lists.
>

I can tell you that, judging from the crash logs I get from Crash Analyzer, the majority of FCP crashes are caused by user error, specifically workflow issues. A common one is piling loads of filters on top of H.264 footage in the timeline - not a recipe for success.

My software:
Pro Maintenance Tools - Tools to keep Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Pro X, Avid Media Composer and Adobe Premiere Pro running smoothly and fix problems when they arise
Pro Media Tools - Edit QuickTime chapters and metadata, detect gamma shifts, edit markers, watch renders and more
More tools...

There are legit complaints, there are people who want FCP to act like another NLE, and of course, there are complete idiots trying to sound like they know something:

[slumbuddy.wordpress.com]

The French philosopher Rene Descartes once wrote that all our senses may be deceived by an evil demon, similarly, in this case, don't bother commenting, as this guy obviously only approves comments that backs his point or ones that he can answer, so that he can ease his conscience that he is saying and hearing only the right thing.



www.strypesinpost.com

Andy Mees Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, exactly, Justin, most of those here who might
> care enough to comment are already across those
> mailing lists and already commented, if so
> inclined, earlier in the week. To intentionally
> try to stir up discussion here as you are doing
> now, in an unashamedly pro FCP community somewhat
> after the fact, might come across a bit trollish
> despite your probably altruistic intent, so don't
> be surprised if some of the reply's you get are
> terse or dismissive.


Of course. I should point out that I'm primarily a FCP editor/assistant editor. I should have made clear that my intent was to get the reaction of those here, one of the most informed FCP communities there is, in addition to the general banter of the lists (where quality an vary wildly.) I apologize to those who felt my brining up the topic was intended to slander FCP advocates (of which I count myself a member.)

My personal opinion is that while some of his complaints clearly stem from his own ignorance of the software, other criticisms are quite legit. Specifically, his citing of problems with long form projects rings very true to me. FCP still requires too much TLC to keep large projects solid. In that sense he echos my frustration as I concentrate my efforts more towards assisting on features than on editing short projects myself.

- Justin Barham -

Asking this out of curiosity and some amount of igorance, but hey...


Aren't some of the issues identified surrounding media management and long form projects addressed by using Final Cut Server? It seems like they might be... Problem is, Final Cut Server is quite foreign (and new) to some/most(?) editors used to using just FCP...

It seems like Apple's solution to better media management for FCP was to create a separate solution, in the form of Final Cut Server.

So, is it fair to compare AVID to just FCP, in this regard? I haven't seen anyone address a comparison between AVID and the combined FCP and FC Server...

(And, yes, I realize that FC Server requires another "layer/level" of knowledge/skill/resources, one that isn't part of the usual FCP-only setup.)

-----

So, in other words, if we work on complex projects and have a "large enough" budget, shouldn't we need to consider adding FC Server to the mix?


-Dave

I wouldn't like to see the FCP-Server-as-file-manager idea advanced too far.
It's a file manager for huge data pipelines, multiple stations or seats and the like.
FCP should be able to manage a large project like a feature without any file or media management problems, and it can with an experienced operator.
A standard fiction feature isn't really that much data when you compare it to a doc that shoots over a couple of years or some nature shows that spend hours waiting for that bug-like thing to do that mating-like thing with that other bug-like thing.
One project should be able to handle it without problems. Doing any kind of multicam is definitely going to mess up your project size and they have to fix that SOON as 3D/stereoscopic editing is an analogue or subset of multicam editing.

AVID kills it, and has for years, with their Media Tool and media databases.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

Andrew Kines Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FCP should be able to manage a large project like
> a feature without any file or media management
> problems, and it can with an experienced
> operator.

That's the thing - all NLEs have their quirks and if you understand the quirks and the established workarounds, you'll be fine in any situation.

(Of course, they shouldn't have quirks at all and many of FCP's have been there since version 1.0 without being fixed.)

My software:
Pro Maintenance Tools - Tools to keep Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Pro X, Avid Media Composer and Adobe Premiere Pro running smoothly and fix problems when they arise
Pro Media Tools - Edit QuickTime chapters and metadata, detect gamma shifts, edit markers, watch renders and more
More tools...

I know that, I am just making it clear that the solution we're hoping for isn't another software package like FCServer, it's a fix of the Media Management functions within FCP.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

>AVID kills it, and has for years, with their Media Tool and media databases.

Avid MC isn't without it's quirks too. And I hit a BIG one on this current project. I constantly had media go offline...just vanish. There one day, gone the next. But then it might reappear later. Truely odd. I trashed the media databases, rebuilt them...no avail.

Then I asked for advice, and it turns out that my MXF folders...the ones named 1, 2 and so on. You have to use an Avid to know that there is the Avid Media files folder, then MXF folder, then numbered folders. The reason for having numbered folders is that there is a 5000 file LIMIT for each folder. Each should only have 5000 or less media files in them. Well, mine didn't. I had 5,100 in one, 5248 in another, 5078 in another. Too many! So I made a new numbered folder, moved files into there...databases updated and rebuilt and BOOM! My media came back.

Would I have known to do that without knowing about that quirk? Much less had the ability to ask for help? No. I would have floundered with media vanishing and me cursing at how bad Avid is with media management. And it appears to be if it keeps putting more than 5000 files in a folder that it ITSELF knows needs to be less than that.

Knowing your tool. Or hiring people who know the system...or being able to ask for help when things aren't working right...those are key. If you don't have the support, your project will suffer.

Avid isn't infallable. Far from it. It is just less prone to issues due to the closed nature of the program, and the rigid list of rules it requires you to follow in order to work with it. FCP is so open, so able to do many many things, that the opportunity for issues to arise are greater. That's the danger.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

I'd LOVE to have a Avid - FCP Smackdown at lafcpug. A completely 100% unscientific totally biased "here is how I do this, can you do that?" We could use a A/B switcher and go back and forth. Would be so much fun if I find the right people to do it

Michael Horton
-------------------

suddenly i hear the fiddle music from deliverance

Wow Shane, that sucks.

I know I have had more files in a folder than 5000 but that was pre-MXF. More like OMF and pre-OMF (ah AVR26 how I do not miss you).

I wouldn't be surprised if that's a MXF standard problem, because MXF's are being used for solid state camera's and other places that use a proprietary OS. I remember someone telling me that Panasonic's P2 uses a Linux variant OS.
Of course not coding your software to be aware of a file count limit is probably something that got missed in QC but shouldn't. AVID is moving fast on development, or faster than they used to, so who knows why their otherwise formidable Media Tool would have a bug like that in it. Good to know though, thanks for taking one for the team.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

Quote

I'd LOVE to have a Avid - FCP Smackdown at lafcpug.

Nevermind the A/B switcher - twin projectors side by side.

It would only be fun though if you had Ring Girls in Bikinis struttin' around with ROUND CARDS, beer tub girls and shot girls wandering the crowd. Gotta get people loose for that event

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Mike, you know how long it has been since I have been to a meeting. If you set that up, I will be there as it is something that truly interests me and could have an impact on my business.

Dan

You should have gone to our Avid/FCP 2-step when Walter Murch and Steve Cohen and Shane Ross presented. Walter did a "what he liked and did not like about both NLEs. Was cool.

[www.lafcpug.org]

Michael Horton
-------------------

Quote

suddenly i hear the fiddle music from deliverance

Actually, it was banjo and guitar. But I hear it too....

Mike is there any video or a transcript of the Murch Final Cut to Avid 2step meeting - would love to see that..... Best Andy

Yup, it's right here:

[www.klicktab.com]



www.strypesinpost.com