24 FPS TO 29.97 Conversions

Aloha

What is the correct workflow to convert 24 fps footage to 29.97? Here is what I have. I currently have 24 FPS footage shot with a Sony EX3 at 35 Mbs CBR - I need to edit in/out points and color correct the clips. Then I need to convert the footage to 29.97 either Motion jpeg B 85 percent or Photo Jpeg clips. I have around 500 clips i need to convert - any suggestions? - What codec is better - pjpeg or Mjpeg a / b? - Should I edit in the native format - export then run through compressor? to convert to 29.97? - what settings?

Currently what i have been doing is create a 29.97 project mjpeg B settings - drop in the XDCAM footage @ 24 fps - Process render / edit - color correct / rerender / then export - for some reason i feel this is the incorrect way. does it pause a few frames to make up the extra 5.97 frames?

Thanks in advance - have a great weekend and try and get away from your computer screen for a few minutes at least - i know its hard but the best looking footage is the real world observed by your own eyes and senses

Thanks
Sean

First off, your footage isn't 24FPS. Your footage is 23.976 unless the EX3 does something I have never heard of it doing and it's not listed here:
[pro.sony.com]

OK next. you have to convert 500 clips to something else, why?
Is there a tech spec for delivery? I am guessing not. If it's for the web why convert to 29.97?

You are right though that dropping 23.976 footage into a 29.97 sequence would not be a good idea. FCP doesn't add the proper pulldown (2/3/2/3) to get to 29.97.

Quickly, and without the burden of knowing why you're doing it the way you are, this is my suggestion:
Edit @23.976 native res
Export @ 23.976 native res
Use JES Deinterlacer to add pulldown to self contained QT
Convert to delivery codec.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

MJpeg is better than PJpeg for interlaced footage.



www.strypesinpost.com

Andrew Kines Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Use JES Deinterlacer to add pulldown to self
> contained QT

Would this be a good product to convert 23.976 to 29.97, so that it could
be placed on a 29.97 timeline.
I am aware that FCP does an awful job of pulldown ,and was wondering
if this product would do the job?

I've never used it on a large batch of files so you would have to work out the time involved.

It's solidly in the cheap vertex of the fast/cheap/good triangle so you have only one other thing left to decide whether it is for you. And by cheap I mean free.
Go forth in to the world grasshopper and test test test.
And report back.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

>Would this be a good product to convert 23.976 to 29.97

Adding a 2:3 pulldown is a trivially simple operation, so it should be quite safe. A backup route is to do it in AE, but you need to properly interpret your footage and render in 16 bit or float, otherwise you'll be rendering in 8 bit RGB.



www.strypesinpost.com

If you want to do this kind of conversion inside FCP, my Standards Converter pack with the G Film Converter plugin has a film to NTSC mode that adds correct 3:2 pulldown as a FCP render process.

Graeme

[www.nattress.com] - Plugins for FCP-X

Thanks, I take it this problem with FCP hasn't been
fixed even in Release 7?


Graeme Nattress Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you want to do this kind of conversion inside
> FCP, my Standards Converter pack with the G Film
> Converter plugin has a film to NTSC mode that adds
> correct 3:2 pulldown as a FCP render process.
>
> Graeme

Not that I know of....

Graeme

(Referring to 3:2 pulldown, using software-based tools)

Two other solutions to adding pulldown include using Shake (very easy) and Compressor (yes, Compressor can add pulldown).

Another thing to consider when adding pulldown is that you may need to use the same tool to remove that pulldown properly. This is true, especially if you are removing pulldown on an edited piece, i.e., one with "scene breaks." Various tools use different cadence offsets when adding pulldown (Graeme's lets you choose). Compressor can use scene detection and can deal with changes/breaks in cadence offset when removing pulldown.

I am running some tests of my own, in order to compare the efficiency of the various different tools, including Graeme's FCP plugins and the JES Deinterlacer application. I hope to post some results over the next few days (this weekend, hopefully).

This kind of information seems to be relevant as many of us move to more of a file-based workflow. Besides delivery for broadcast, several stock footage companies also request PAL or NTSC frame rates...


-Dave

Thanks Dave, that would be cool.
Because of this issue I have asked that
ALL XDCAM be shot at 30p (29.97) rather than 24p (23.976).

The motion artifacts from a pan which is shot at 23.976
and plopped down on a 29.97 timeline is just bloody awful!


D-Mac Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (Referring to 3:2 pulldown, using software-based
> tools)
>
> Two other solutions to adding pulldown include
> using Shake (very easy) and Compressor (yes,
> Compressor can add pulldown).
>
> Another thing to consider when adding pulldown is
> that you may need to use the same tool to remove
> that pulldown properly. This is true, especially
> if you are removing pulldown on an edited piece,
> i.e., one with "scene breaks." Various tools use
> different cadence offsets when adding pulldown
> (Graeme's lets you choose). Compressor can use
> scene detection and can deal with changes/breaks
> in cadence offset when removing pulldown.
>
> I am running some tests of my own, in order to
> compare the efficiency of the various different
> tools, including Graeme's FCP plugins and the JES
> Deinterlacer application. I hope to post some
> results over the next few days (this weekend,
> hopefully).
>
> This kind of information seems to be relevant as
> many of us move to more of a file-based workflow.
> Besides delivery for broadcast, several stock
> footage companies also request PAL or NTSC frame
> rates...
>
>
> -Dave

>and Compressor (yes, Compressor can add pulldown).

Consistent pulldown? how?



www.strypesinpost.com

strypes Wrote:

Quote

Consistent pulldown? how?

Using Compressor, I have verified that a specific combination of settings seems to work consistently, but I am now in the process of checking another combination (from another, more definitive source). I don't want to jump-the-gun on this... once I finish some tests, and double-check things, I will report back. Still testing different codecs to make sure things work considtently (ProRes, SD, HD)...


Note: I didn't discover either of these methods (hence my testing to verify that things work properly). And, I can say that actually setting up a bunch of test cases, and monitoring things on a broadcast monitor, has done wonders to really get this stuff to sink in to my brain and become more clear. I just don't want to present anything that may be "iffy."


-Dave

P.S. - It's too bad Apple has left Shake to die. There are so many utilitarian things that it does as well as anything else that it's a shame it's not still a more viable (shipping and supported) product... My compositor friend told me what to do... I have never used Shake before... FileIn node and a FileOut node, with "add pulldown" set on the FileIn node... render, and done! Perfect job... took about 15 minutes to figure out everything (fortunately, the node-based paradigm didn't confuse me too much)...

There might be issues in Shake with it doing a YUV -> RGB, add pulldown -> YUV conversion?? Anyone know?

Graeme

Quote
mark@avolution
The motion artifacts from a pan which is shot at 23.976
and plopped down on a 29.97 timeline is just bloody awful!

Of course it will look bad, for the reasons outlined earlier that FCP doesn't had a proper pulldown (what does it do, like 2/2/4/4 or something) It will only exacerbate any motion artefacts inherent in a lower frame rate. Adding a proper 2/3/2/3 pulldown will give you the best looking version of your pan at a broadcast frame rate, and add that film like frame cadence structure that North Americans have grown up with watching movies on TV.

But shooting at 29.97 isn't the solution to that. It's a whole different look. If it was being shot at 23.976 for aesthetic reasons going to 29.97 to fix that is not the best solution.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

Quote

what does it do, like 2/2/4/4 or something

2:2:2:4. That is to say, it doubles every fourth frame. Ends up looking stuttery, 'cause it is.

Graeme Nattress Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There might be issues in Shake with it doing a YUV
> -> RGB, add pulldown -> YUV conversion?? Anyone
> know?
>
> Graeme

Graeme,

I took a few frames from my Shake "add pulldown" test and from my JES Deinterlacer "add pulldown" test and did a difference test in Photoshop. I didn't notice anything different pixels. Of course, the source QT movie was using the DV/DVCPro codec. I may check other codecs, namely ProRes.

As far as I can tell, I am not doing any color space conversion when I use Shake for adding pulldown...


-Dave

P.S. - Because there is a difference, I am guessing you mean Y'CbCr to/from RGB conversion, not YUV to/from RGB...

You could compare against the original movie and match up some of the "whole" frames. Other thing to do would be just a pass-through test and see how that fairs.

Graeme

Graeme Nattress Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You could compare against the original movie and
> match up some of the "whole" frames. Other thing
> to do would be just a pass-through test and see
> how that fairs.
>
> Graeme

That's exactly what I did.


I'll try the pass-through, as well. Thanks for the suggestions!

I know that Shake 4.1 can do color space conversions, so it makes sense (to me?) that it doesn't necessarily modify the color space (or shouldn't automatically) when you import a QT movie... not that I know for sure...


-Dave

All depends on how it's pipeline works. I always thought Shake asked for RGB from Quicktime, but even if it asks for r4fl, it's still going to be usually doing a YUV to RGB conversion.

Graeme

Graeme Nattress Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All depends on how it's pipeline works. I always
> thought Shake asked for RGB from Quicktime, but
> even if it asks for r4fl, it's still going to be
> usually doing a YUV to RGB conversion.
>
> Graeme

This may explain some of what happens, if only by implication...

Gamma handling is different in Shake and Final Cut Pro (2008)

I guess internally it may handle everything as RGB, which I guess is what you mean (?)...

My quick test cases aren't definitive, so I can only report that I don't see any color changes just doing pulldown addition in Shake...


-Dave

Dave

Thanks for the help - I look forward to the results, In the mean time I am trying out the JES software.

Thanks
Sean

>Using Compressor, I have verified that a specific combination of settings seems to work
>consistently

Because I just threw in a clip into Compressor (25p CT conform to 23.98. I'm in PAL land). There's no specific setting to indicate that pulldown is added (the manual doesn't mention anywhere that Compressor is able to add a pulldown), but I found out that if I set retiming to "fast", it comes out with what seems like a pulldown. Then I stepped through the clip to check the pulldown, and around the 11th or 12th caadence, it added an extra whole frame.



www.strypesinpost.com

strypes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Using Compressor, I have verified that a specific
> combination of settings seems to work
> >consistently
>
> Because I just threw in a clip into Compressor
> (25p CT conform to 23.98. I'm in PAL land).
> There's no specific setting to indicate that
> pulldown is added (the manual doesn't mention
> anywhere that Compressor is able to add a
> pulldown), but I found out that if I set retiming
> to "fast", it comes out with what seems like a
> pulldown. Then I stepped through the clip to check
> the pulldown, and around the 11th or 12th
> caadence, it added an extra whole frame.

Gerard,

I am not ignoring "PAL land"... but, I have only been looking at going from 23.976 to 29.97... that's all I've tested.

There are some codec and frame control settings that trigger the adding of pulldown to 23.976 footage... of course, this doesn't help going from 25 to 23.976 or 25 to 29.97 (which aren't about 3:2 pulldown)...

Sean,

From what I can tell, the JES Deinterlacer program seems to work just fine... there are some preferences you may need to adjust, and make sure the settings are correct (the interface is a bit funky, but hey, it's free)... In my initial testing, a default (?) preference was squeezing the frame horizontally, making it slightly taller and narrower on output. It was a few pixels on each side... because the default matte is black, you may not notice it... It may be that my defaults were not typical...

-----

In general, as with many other more technical aspects of editing, I would always suggest running test cases, as a improper setting can affect the output... not rocket science but getting the settings right requires attention to detail...



-Dave

> of course, this doesn't help going from 25 to 23.976 or 25 to 29.97 (which aren't about 3:2
>pulldown)...

Conforming 25 to 23.98 then adding pulldown to 29.97 is quite a common way to go from PAL to NTSC and most certainly involves 2:3 pulldown. I'm just a little suspicious of doing it in Compressor, because Apple hasn't mentioned that it is an option in Compressor 3.5, and I seem to be getting a broken cadence on one test clip, not that I have ever used Compressor to add pulldown.



www.strypesinpost.com

Dave, Compressor cannot add 3:2.

strypes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > of course, this doesn't help going from 25 to
> 23.976 or 25 to 29.97 (which aren't about 3:2
> >pulldown)...
>
> Conforming 25 to 23.98 then adding pulldown to
> 29.97 is quite a common way to go from PAL to NTSC
> and most certainly involves 2:3 pulldown.

Conforming from 25 to 23.976, THEN going to 29.97 is not what I said. You point is well taken, however...


I was only making a specific comment about 25 to 23.976 or 25 to 29.97, only...


-Dave

Jeff Harrell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dave, Compressor cannot add 3:2.

Sorry, Jeff, I must disagree with you on this point (from a bit of research and testing, which shows that it does seem to work properly).


I will present my findings in a separate post. However, I never state anything with absolute certainty... so, we shall see...


-Dave

When this topic came up a couple of weeks ago, and now again, I decided to check out some of the available options for adding pulldown via software.

I tested Shake, Compressor, JES Deinterlacer, and Graeme Nattress' Standards Conversion plugins for FCP. After Effects can also add pulldown, as well. They all seem to do the job just fine.*** I did some performance testing but I'll leave those results for a later date (if ever).

For now, I'll focus just on Compressor, as it is the "big unknown." If Compressor actually works, though it's undocumented in Apple's official documentation, then we would have another option available. Plus, since it's bundled with Final Cut Studio, Compressor costs nothing extra.

I should state that I didn't discover this method, and was quite surprised as well to find out that Compressor seems to be able to add 3:2 pulldown to 23.976 material. I couldn't find any mention of Compressor and adding pulldown in the Compressor manual or elsewhere in Apple's support pages on their website.

I did discover the "solution" in two forum posts, one from the Creative Cow FCP forum, and one from the Apple Discussions Compressor forum. Additionally, I ran across the same information in Brian Gary's recently published Apple Pro Training Series: Compressor 3.5 book (on pages 111 and 112, which you can preview with the "Look Inside" feature at Amazon). According to the forum posts, earlier versions of Compressor may be able to add pulldown, as well as version 3.5 (it's not a new "feature".

In a nutshell, here are the key steps to get this to work:

- You would typically choose a Compressor preset "setting" to work with and have the input and output video codecs be the same (since we're are just concerned with adding pulldown). In other words, start with a preset and customize it.

- Make sure your input is progressive and has a frame rate of 23.976/23.98 fps (and that the Inspector window in Compressor shows this, as sometimes source files may not be properly recognized).

- Adjust the settings, so that the output codec matches the input, except that you want to make sure that the output codec is set for 29.97 fps, with interlacing and the proper field order.

- In the Frame Controls tab in the Inspector window, activate these features (click the "gear" and choose "On" from the Frame Controls pop-up menu).

- Leave all settings at their defaults, except for Output Fields, which you should change to the proper setting, depending on your video codec and frame size. The remaining settings should be (untouched): Resize Filter -> Better; Deinterlace -> Fast; Adaptive Details -> Checked; Anti-alias and Details Level -> set to zero; Rate Conversion -> Fast; and Set Duration to -> 100% of source (with radio button "on" for that setting).

- Submit the job, then check the results in FCP for proper cadence for 3:2 pulldown, preferably on an external broadcast monitor.

Note: I have not tried changing any of the other Frame Controls settings, such as Rate Conversion, to see if that affects the output... The settings mentioned above seem to result in proper pulldown being added.

Compressor also seems to work well in removing pulldown that it has added. However, when removing pulldown with Compressor, its scene detection and broken cadence detection may not work well if you choose "Allow Job Segmenting" in the Encoder tab in the Inspector window.

In any event, I would suggest you run your own tests to make sure things are working properly. Plus, Compressor isn't the fastest horse in the race.

-----

So, that's the short version...



Best regards,

Dave


*** The fastest of the bunch seems to be JES Deinterlacer. However, you need to be very careful about selecting the proper settings or you may get other, unexpected changes to your video (cropping, frame resizing, etc.). At least, for me, choosing the proper settings was a bit tricky.

Good stuff. I'd like to try this method with one change.
Not add fields on output, as we do a lot of stuff for web,
and it makes no sense to add fields to progressive input HD;
regardless if it is scaled down on final output.

When I do web orientated stuff I disable Video Out from FCP,
as I only want to see it in the canvas as not as video.

Your help in this regards is awesome.


D-Mac Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When this topic came up a couple of weeks ago, and
> now again, I decided to check out some of the
> available options for adding pulldown via
> software.
>
> I tested Shake, Compressor, JES Deinterlacer, and
> Graeme Nattress' Standards Conversion plugins for
> FCP. After Effects can also add pulldown, as well.
> They all seem to do the job just fine.*** I did
> some performance testing but I'll leave those
> results for a later date (if ever).
>
> For now, I'll focus just on Compressor, as it is
> the "big unknown." If Compressor actually works,
> though it's undocumented in Apple's official
> documentation, then we would have another option
> available. Plus, since it's bundled with Final Cut
> Studio, Compressor costs nothing extra.
>
> I should state that I didn't discover this method,
> and was quite surprised as well to find out that
> Compressor seems to be able to add 3:2 pulldown to
> 23.976 material. I couldn't find any mention of
> Compressor and adding pulldown in the Compressor
> manual or elsewhere in Apple's support pages on
> their website.
>
> I did discover the "solution" in two forum posts,
> one from the Creative Cow FCP forum, and one from
> the Apple Discussions Compressor forum.
> Additionally, I ran across the same information in
> Brian Gary's recently published Apple Pro Training
> Series: Compressor 3.5 book (on pages 111 and 112,
> which you can preview with the "Look Inside"
> feature at Amazon). According to the forum posts,
> earlier versions of Compressor may be able to add
> pulldown, as well as version 3.5 (it's not a new
> "feature".
>
> In a nutshell, here are the key steps to get this
> to work:
>
> - You would typically choose a Compressor preset
> "setting" to work with and have the input and
> output video codecs be the same (since we're are
> just concerned with adding pulldown). In other
> words, start with a preset and customize it.
>
> - Make sure your input is progressive and has a
> frame rate of 23.976/23.98 fps (and that the
> Inspector window in Compressor shows this, as
> sometimes source files may not be properly
> recognized).
>
> - Adjust the settings, so that the output codec
> matches the input, except that you want to make
> sure that the output codec is set for 29.97 fps,
> with interlacing and the proper field order.
>
> - In the Frame Controls tab in the Inspector
> window, activate these features (click the "gear"
> and choose "On" from the Frame Controls pop-up
> menu).
>
> - Leave all settings at their defaults, except
> for Output Fields, which you should change to the
> proper setting, depending on your video codec and
> frame size. The remaining settings should be
> (untouched): Resize Filter -> Better; Deinterlace
> -> Fast; Adaptive Details -> Checked; Anti-alias
> and Details Level -> set to zero; Rate Conversion
> -> Fast; and Set Duration to -> 100% of source
> (with radio button "on" for that setting).
>
> - Submit the job, then check the results in FCP
> for proper cadence for 3:2 pulldown, preferably on
> an external broadcast monitor.
>
> Note: I have not tried changing any of the other
> Frame Controls settings, such as Rate Conversion,
> to see if that affects the output... The settings
> mentioned above seem to result in proper pulldown
> being added.
>
> Compressor also seems to work well in removing
> pulldown that it has added. However, when removing
> pulldown with Compressor, its scene detection and
> broken cadence detection may not work well if you
> choose "Allow Job Segmenting" in the Encoder tab
> in the Inspector window.
>
> In any event, I would suggest you run your own
> tests to make sure things are working properly.
> Plus, Compressor isn't the fastest horse in the
> race.
>
> -----
>
> So, that's the short version...
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dave
>
>
> *** The fastest of the bunch seems to be JES
> Deinterlacer. However, you need to be very careful
> about selecting the proper settings or you may get
> other, unexpected changes to your video (cropping,
> frame resizing, etc.). At least, for me, choosing
> the proper settings was a bit tricky.