Nested Sequence in Main Project Timeline Won't Open Anymore in Own Timeline (Tab)

I don't know whether it is an advised workflow, (as I am for the most part self taught in FCP), but I am working on a project where I am using nested sequences, (for the different scenes), and then arranging them along with cutaways, etc., within the main projects timeline (sequence).

When I need to edit a scene within the main timeline, I double click it on the timeline, and it opens up in tab, in its own timeline. I can then make my changes and then close that tab and go back to the main project timeline.

All of a sudden, one of the nested sequences no longer opens up in tab on the timeline when I double click it, but only opens in the viewer/slug window. I tried using Preference Manager to delete FCP preferences, and still no joy. I can no longer edit this particular nested sequence. The other nested sequences, (scenes), so far still open in tab in their own timelines, as usual, and can be further edited.

You might say, well go to the projects bin, and find the nested sequence, and open it from there.
Well, the nested sequence is seemingly present in my projects bin, but, when I double click it, when it opens on the timeline in tab, even though it has the same name, it is not the same up to date sequence that is on my timeline. (I hope this makes sense...)

This was not a surprise to me, as I had learned previously while editing, to access the nested sequence with the latest changes, or to make changes to the nested sequence that would be present in the main projects timeline, I couldn't click the sequence name in the bin. I would have to double click the nested sequence on the main projects timeline, (not the bin), and then when that opened up in tab in its own timeline, it was up to date, and the subsequent changes I would make would be reflected in the main project timeline too. (Wheew. I really hope this makes sense...)

But again, suddenly this particular nested sequence, when double clicked from the main projects timeline, will only open in the viewer window, so I can't edit it.

The version of the nested sequence that opens when I double click it from the project bin is so much older, and if I have to start using that, so much work will have been lost, that I can't bear the thought. I also can't bear the thought of this occurring again with other nested sequences. I am actually pretty distraught.

Does anyone please have any advice on to how I can get this nested sequence to once again open in its own timeline?

Thanks in advance for any all help and suggestions.

If we can define "advised workflow" as "workflow advised by me, personally," then what you describe is really really not an advised workflow. Unless there's something you left out or I misunderstood, there's absolutely no reason to set up your timeline this way, and myriad reasons not to. You've discovered some of them already.

That said, if I remember correctly you need to hold down the option key when double-clicking a nest in the timeline to get it to open up as a timeline.

If I were you, I'd back up my project file ? again, I mean, on top of the backups you're surely already saving ? and embrace copy-and-ripple-paste. In my opinion you're going to continue to struggle to make progress until you undo the mess (sorry) you've made so far. It'll take some time, but it'll be time very well spent.

>I don't know whether it is an advised workflow

Oh no it isn't. And I don't know if you know this, but if you intend to send your edit for an audio mix, you won't be able to. You only nest when you want to apply global effects to a sequence.



www.strypesinpost.com

>if I remember correctly you need to hold down the option key when double-clicking a nest in the
>timeline to get it to open up as a timeline.

No no. You double click on the sequence to open it in a new timeline. Option double click when you want to open it in the viewer.



www.strypesinpost.com

Yeah, what I was saying is that I thought if you double-clicked a nest on a timeline, it'd open in the viewer as if it were a shot. And if you want to see the innerds of that nest, you option-double-click it to get it to open up as a timeline. Which I thought was the question.

But seriously, I have zero confidence on this one. The last time I used nests was three years ago, immediately before a weekend of having to redo a bunch of crap I thought I'd already done because I'd done it wrong. I don't have clear memories of the experience, since there was so much angry-drinking involved.

It's actually the other way around. I do use nests every now and then to apply the BS filter over a few composite shots. I won't really call it a composite, but for the lack of a better term... yea.

Richard.M, try this. Option double click the nest to launch it in the viewer (or drag it into the viewer), hit command U to make a subclip. Then apple drag the subclip into a new timeline.



www.strypesinpost.com

Thanks Jeff, & strypes for the swift replies. It was good, hard medicine, and certainly not what I wanted to hear.

OK, so obviously I screwed this workflow thing up bad. And, for the most part gotten away with it, as I have been working on this project this way for five months, and am now basically finished. It was when I wanted to slightly adjust the placing of a subtitle, after watching a DVD encode, that I discovered this anomaly.

I had used nested compositions within After Effects, and when I tried it in FCP, (even though I should have been wary that it was buggy), I thought it was a good way to be able to edit individual scenes without having to be constantly moving the rest of the project around.

Part of the problem with being self taught is I never figured out a way to work on the middle of a long timeline without dragging half of it over to make room. Perhaps that is what you mean by embracing copy-and-ripple-paste.

I do have the entire disk housing the project backed up. I am not sure what you mean by another backup?

So, I will undo the mess, I have to copy the clips within each of the nested sequences, and paste them in the place of the now deleted nested sequences themselves. And, of course, never use this method again.

Which then begs the question, how does one work, (with elbow room), on a scene in the middle of a project without having to constantly drag half the project off to the side?

Did I at least have it half right? If I want that so called elbow room to work, is it a good workflow to edit individual scenes within their own sub-sequences, and then copy and paste the updated versions of that scene from the sub-sequence, back into the main timeline? or is there an elephant in the room I am missing. (I know with my lack of training, there is more than one, but just in terms of having room to work.)

As to the audio mix, I still haven't "learned" Soundtrack Pro. I have been balancing levels between clips and scenes all along surfing keyframes in the audio wave forms. I am sure that a real pro could do better at everything I am doing, including sweetening up the audio more than just balancing levels. Perhaps if there ends up being an interest generated in the project, (a 53 minute "doc" I shot myself in Haiti days after the quake), and once I have repaired the timeline, then a pro audio mix will be possible.

Thanks again for the replies. Any further comments on working on scenes, (with elbow room), within the timeline, (how I got into this mess, are greatly appreciated.

Quote
strypes
Richard.M, try this. Option double click the nest to launch it in the viewer (or drag it into the viewer), hit command U to make a subclip. Then apple drag the subclip into a new timeline.

Will try this...

hi richard.

if that nest wont open by double clicking it in the timeline,
then delete the original instance of it from the browser (or rename that)
COPY the nest from the timeline, PASTE it into the browser and see if it will open from there.

working from nests the way you are while possible is not advisable

"Which then begs the question, how does one work, (with elbow room), on a scene in the middle of a project without having to constantly drag half the project off to the side?"

a number of ways.

one is to do your work in a separate sequence, and then copy /paste the new edit into your master sequence.
i'd do this if the work is speculative and requires a lot of re-thinking.

if the work is fairly straightforward, then i'd just work in the master sequence.
you need to insert a shot, either use F9 to do an insert edit,
or Shift V to do an insert Paste.

or use your ripple tools to expand and contract your edits.

when i started in FCP, i did a lot of "dragging half the project off to the side"
but these days i very rarely do that.


good luck with it all,
nick

> Perhaps that is what you mean by embracing copy-and-ripple-paste.

Shane had a post on it here:
[lfhd.net]



www.strypesinpost.com

Oh Nick, I really liked your idea... I thought it would work, but no joy!

I renamed the so called original, (which had old edits, but of the same name), and copied the nested sequence from the main timeline and pasted it into the browser... But, the double click of the copy and pasted nest sequence still only opens it in the viewer.
But I was energized for a moment there...

There was nothing straightforward about this project. I have had to move scenes around several different ways to find the right way to make a story from it. That was why I thought using nested sequences, (scenes), was a good thing.

You said one way to have elbow room, was to work in separate sequences, (which is what I was doing, so I was getting it "half-right." I just needed to copy and paste all the clips from each sub sequence after the work, and not the sequence itself. I will do it this way while I study up, and learn the better (real) ways of working in the middle of a timeline, that you all mentioned.

I will look for whatever tutorials, etc., I can find to learn how to use the tools that are already there to properly work comfortably within the middle of a long timeline, without needing the "elbow room."

And strypes, thanks for the link to Shane's post on copy ripple paste too. I will absorb its wisdom.

I have much to learn...
The dragging the half-project thing, just to work comfortably in the middle, has to go.

Did the subclip method work to open the nest?



www.strypesinpost.com

ok, well do you know you can edit from a sequence loaded into the viewer?

you can use the normal commands F9, F10 etc, and the viewer sequence will be edited into the timeline as a nest.
this wont help you right now, of course,

BUT
you can also hold Command while you do these edits, (so Command+F9 or Command +F10)
and then the CONTENTS of the viewer sequence will be edited into the timeline.

give it a go, see if it works with your troublesome nest.


"The dragging the half-project thing, just to work comfortably in the middle, has to go."

no, no , not at all.
it's just that the ways i use now are *for the most part* simpler to use.

there are still occasions when i will just drag the lot over.
there are times when that IS the simplest way.



nick

Quote
strypes
Did the subclip method work to open the nest?

No, it didn't. And no surprise because the sub clip's icon was for a clip, and not a sequence.

Nor did Nick's idea, and a guy on another forum had a variation of Nicks which was copy the nest, and paste it into a new projects browser, and then relaunch FCP with only that project open. Got excited about that one too, but again, no joy...

Also, either way I did it, the copy and pasted nest also only had the clip and not sequence icon.
It's like FCP doesn't remember that it was ever a sequence, and only thinks of it as a clip.

Quote
Nick
BUT
you can also hold Command while you do these edits, (so Command+F9 or Command +F10)
and then the CONTENTS of the viewer sequence will be edited into the timeline.

Oh Nick, you are giving me some hope again. I will try this and report back...

I tried the Command+F9 and Command+F10 idea, but it only pasted the nest-sequence itself back into the timeline, and not its composite clips.

Just as a test, I tried the Command+F9 or &Command+F10 idea, with another sub-sequence that does open in a new tab in the timeline.

I option clicked that nest to get it into the viewer, but then when I tried using Command+F9 or Command+F10, (just like with the troublesome nest), only the nest-sequence pasted into the timeline, not it's composite clips.

Thanks so much for all the ideas. I still remain hopeful something might work...

There's so much information above that you'll have to excuse me if I'm repeating anything.

A few thoughts:

1. Are you sure the timeline you're editing in is not the sequence you're trying to open? Or a copy of it?

2. Have you tried just dragging that nest back into the Browser directly? Believe it or not, Copy/Paste doesn't always behave the same as a straight drag in all instances.

3. Take a screen shot of your FCP windows. Maybe we can spot something.


www.derekmok.com

"Thanks so much for all the ideas. I still remain hopeful something might work..."

have you tried going back into your autosaves?


nick

Okay, I'm gonna speak authoritatively for a minute here, but only because I haven't had any coffee yet and I'm too lazy to type "in my opinion" and "I think" and "in my experience" a lot. Please understand that these are recommendations, not the word of Almighty God.

Stop thinking of your timeline like a canvas. You neither need nor want "elbow room." What you think of as "elbow room" is actually a big gaping hole in your show, one that shouldn't be there.

When you're doing long-form work, it's customary to break your show up into reels that are less than ten or eleven minutes long. This is an artifact from film workflow, where release prints had to be struck on a set of reels that were no more than a thousand feet (16,000 frames, or just over 11 minutes) long. In actuality, release prints can come on two-thousand-foot reels, but the ten-minute-reel paradigm persists because it's nice and manageable. Because you don't want the reel change to happen in the middle of a moment or line of dialogue, you'd edit each reel individually, so one reel would be one timeline. This is still a fine way to work; it's just that sometimes you have to do some stitching together at the end if you need to deliver one long tape or Quicktime. That's no problem.

But within each reel, screw "elbow room." Don't create big holes and treat them like blank areas of canvas on which to draw. That just creates more work for you later, as you have to go through and remove those holes. Instead, as others have said, learn the zen of the insert edit and the ripple and the roll. These tools are sometimes tough for newbies (no offense) to truly understand because they're pretty much unique to nonlinear editing, with no good analogues in other media. But they're the bread and butter of what editors do. If a shot's just a few frames short, you don't need to grab any other shots and move them so you can make room to extend it. Instead, you just ripple the edit point down the timeline a few frames, and the rest of your program moves in sync.

The core concept that helped me get it back in the day was realizing that the only point on the timeline that's fixed is 00:59:50:00. (Or whatever your start-of-slate is.) Everything else floats. A shot in the middle of the timeline can be slipped, rolled or ripple-extended must faster and easier by using the tools for those purposes, rather than getting in there with your cursor and ham-fistedly dragging things around.

Anyway. That's how I see it. That's my advice.

derekmok
Nick
Jeff

Thanks for the replies.
I just got back to the thread. And, haven't opened the project yet.
I will first try the suggestions, and then in Jeff's case, digest, and get back to you all in detail.

Quote
derek
1. Are you sure the timeline you're editing in is not the sequence you're trying to open? Or a copy of it?

2. Have you tried just dragging that nest back into the Browser directly? Believe it or not, Copy/Paste doesn't always behave the same as a straight drag in all instances.

1. Yes, they are different sequences. (You will see this in the screenshot, if I still need to post it.)
2. Yes, I tried dragging it back to the browser, and it still doesn't open. FCP is still displaying this troublesome nested sequence with a "clip" icon, and not a "sequence," icon. All the rest of the nested sequences I have been using, are still displayed in the browser as "sequence" icons.
3. I will post the screenshot with notes, (if Nick's search the auto save vault idea doesn't work.)

Quote
Nick
have you tried going back into your autosaves?

Great idea. Once again you are getting me hopeful. I will try this first. Maybe there is an autosaved version that has the identically edited sequence that will still open. If all goes well, I will then do as I said, and replace all my nests with the clips within, and not use nested sequences within the main timeline ever again. I have learned that lesson...

If it doesn't work, I will post the screenshots.

Quote
Jeff
Okay, I'm gonna speak authoritatively for a minute here, but only because I haven't had any coffee yet and I'm too lazy to type "in my opinion" and "I think" and "in my experience" a lot. Please understand that these are recommendations, not the word of Almighty God.

Jeff, I am having my first cup'a joe as we speak. I haven't read beyond your first paragraph, but I can tell that I will appreciate your candid, authoritative, opinion. I need the tough love. Again, as I am self taught, I know I could have a better, faster and more efficient workflow. And, I want to.

Hallelujah!

The autosave vault had a relatively recent copy, where that troublesome nested sequence will open in the timeline, and needed only a couple of minor tweaks to bring it to date.

Thanks to all of you that were here for me.

lafcpug rocks! I kept up the hope, but deep down, I thought I was toast...


Now, as to my workflow. Here is what I have learned.

1. Don't use nested sequences in my main timeline. Bad workflow, and obviously asking for trouble.

2. It's okay to break up a longer project, into separate timelines if I like working that way. Some people like working with their entire project on one long timeline. But, it is also "customary," in longer projects to work on them broken up into shorter sequences, like film reels in the old school workflow method. Breaking up my project into separate sequences wasn't a wrong workflow, but nesting them in the main timeline was a wrong workflow.

3. Learn to use the right tools. If I am, "getting in there with my (your) cursor and ham-fistedly dragging things around," (Well put!) I am doing it wrong. Stop the habit of dragging half of my project to the side for "elbow room." As I am doing this a lot, I need to learn to use the right tools. Insert, Replace, Slip. Roll Slide, Ripple, etc. Once in a while, in a particular circumstance, it's acceptable. But in practice, it's a horrible workflow.

Thanks again, a bunch.

Best,
Richard

> 1. Don't use nested sequences in my main timeline. Bad workflow, and obviously asking for
> trouble.

You can use nests. But don't edit them. Chopping one nest into chunks, adding transitions, copying and pasting them repeatedly -- those are the operations that get you into trouble.

Always preserve the nest in the Browser. If you need to make changes, delete the nest from the editing timeline, open the nest from the Browser, and make your changes there. Once the changes are done, then put the nest back into the assembly timeline. That prevents your problem of having multiple copies of the nest in multiple locations, with identical names but different content. Very, very dangerous.

> If I am, "getting in there with my (your) cursor and ham-fistedly dragging things around,"
> (Well put!) I am doing it wrong. Stop the habit of dragging half of my project to the side for
> "elbow room."

Actually, I'd completely disagree with Jeff Harrell here. Every editor I know "uses the timeline as a canvas" to some extent. It's inevitable as you experiment with different takes and structures. In my editing projects, for example, I routinely have overlapping elements that oftimes make rippling far more trouble than it's worth, so I have to use multi-select and the All Tracks Forward tool to fine-tune which elements stay and which elements move. And nobody has ever accused me of being slow.

As long as you remember to do cleanups afterwards, "timeline-as-experimental-canvas" is a pretty standard part of the FCP vocabulary. So you can't really just say "always ripple, never drag". FCP doesn't really work that well with that kind of self-imposed limitation -- some people, for example, ask for ways to do things with only the keyboard, when the mouse could have saved them lots of trouble.

> Breaking up my project into separate sequences wasn't a wrong workflow, but nesting them
> in the main timeline was a wrong workflow.

Well, if you're editing a longer project in shorter timelines, you have to nest them eventually. Just don't nest one part and then try to change that part by altering the nest. Use the nests only to assemble for output, export, etc.

The principle I'd suggest adhering to is: Treat nests as temporary, not permanent. They're unstable (you just went through that), and therefore you don't want to rely on them for preserving your editing decisions.


www.derekmok.com

>Well, if you're editing a longer project in shorter timelines, you have to nest them eventually.

Not necessarily. If your final edit consists of a whole bunch of "scene" nests, you will be unable to export an omf for audio mix unless you de-nest them. You can copy and paste the clips (or select a bunch of small sequences and apple drag them into the timeline). That's what I do when I assemble the scenes on a longer project.

You can use nests. As I mentioned, I usually use them for global effects. Lots of nests bloat up the project size and makes FCP extremely buggy.



www.strypesinpost.com

> Not necessarily. If your final edit consists of a whole bunch of "scene" nests, you will be unable
> to export an omf for audio mix unless you de-nest them.

True. The important thing is to know the shortcomings of each method.

Nesting:
- Fast.
- Great for global effects like Broadcast Safe, Timecode Reader/Generator, Widescreen Matte, vignetting.
- Great for "gathering" elements to make main editing timeline neater -- for example, I do commercials with five language tracks that have to be turned on/off for different versions, and I nest the non-language-specific elements because they never change.
- Great for checking flow between smaller segments -- for example, if you need to see the end of Scene 01 before Scene 02 begins, you can put a temporary nest of Scene 01 at the beginning of Scene 02. As long as you remember to delete it before assembling.
- Bad for RAM usage, bad for long-term changes
- Can create confusion if a nest exists both in a timeline and in the Browser.

Copying clips
- Versatile
- Simple, much less prone to bugs and corruptions
- The best way to create alternate versions. Never, ever use nests for that purpose
- Prone to mistakes. You can miss a clip, or pasting the next section could overwrite certain elements at the joints.
- Produces huge timelines; blows up your project-file size dramatically.
- If you're just assembling a version for output rather than OMF, you really don't need to mess with the individual clips. You'll be going back to the individual timelines for more editing anyway.


www.derekmok.com

Quote
derek
Always preserve the nest in the Browser. If you need to make changes, delete the nest from the editing timeline, open the nest from the Browser, and make your changes there. Once the changes are done, then put the nest back into the assembly timeline. That prevents your problem of having multiple copies of the nest in multiple locations, with identical names but different content. Very, very dangerous.

I am sure this is how it ended up getting corrupted. Because, yes, I was doing this the opposite way. I had "learned" that when I double clicked the nest in the timeline and made changes, the changes would not be reflected the next time I double clicked the nest from the browser.
So, from then on, I only launched the nests from the timeline, and not the browser.

But now I am not clear on whether working with nests is a bad practice or not.
Are you saying Derek, that if I "preserve" (manage) nests correctly, by always deleting the old one from the timeline, and then solely launching them from the browser to edit, I could continue to work this way?

And then, when finished editing, and readying for export, ultimately remove the nests from the main timeline, and replace them with their respective clips so it is ready for an audio mix, as strypes said?

Or, is there an agreement here that in general practice, if I edit in sub sequences, before quitting FCP it is better that I should copy and paste just the clips into the main timeline, rather than leave the nests?

Quote
derek
Actually, I'd completely disagree with Jeff Harrell here. Every editor I know "uses the timeline as a canvas" to some extent.

Got it. So there are circumstances, (such as in a non linear project like this one), where having the "elbow room," to move different clips in and out of order, without removing them from the timeline, is an acceptable workflow. Thanks for clarifying that there are cases where the "canvas" workflow is good.

But, Jeff is right in the cases where I just habitually move half the timeline just to give myself "room,"when a ripple or insert paste would be far more efficient. In my own defense, I have always been meticulous with both making sure I move everything, as well as the subsequent cleanups to putting everything back correctly. But clearly, this workflow should not be the default, as it has been.

Quote
derek

Nesting

Fast
Bad for RAM usage, bad for long-term changes.

Copying

Produces huge timelines; blows up your project-file size dramatically

I will wait on the consensus, if there is one, on whether as a general practice I should use properly managed nests before final prep, in my main timeline.

Meanwhile you have given me much more food for thought.

Working with nests in my timeline will make what faster? Editing on the timeline? How about exporting, rendering? Does having nests mean everything gets rendered twice? Once for each sequence? Does it eat up disk space?

As to RAM usage, can you elaborate a little on the drawbacks?

As to copying, that it blows up project size. My 53 minute project itself with multiple nested sequences, is only 30mb. Can you elaborate a little bit on this too please?

And as to huge timelines. Do you mean huge, as in cluttered with many individual clips? Rather than neat with nice long nested sequences?

> Working with nests in my timeline will make what faster? Editing on the timeline?

No, nests slow down the speed with which you access the contents, because you're going through a "buffer". Just as applications ran faster back before the days of Windows and OS, which put a buffer between you and the actual software.

But nests are good as a temporary "lock" on things, as a container. For example, let's say you layer eight stereo sound effects to make one super-loud gunshot sound. Normally you'd need 16 audio tracks to do this. But if you're happy with the sound and want to use it over and over, you nest them, rename the nest "Audio FX Nest 01 Gunshot Compound" and put that into your Browser. Now you can paste a two-track sound effect wherever you need that gun sound, and you don't have to deal with 16 items at the same time.

> As to RAM usage, can you elaborate a little on the drawbacks?

Nests are a lot more taxing on the system, especially if you start razoring them.

Some of these points, you really have to just experience them and find out for yourself. You may end up disagreeing with some of them (as strypes might). And that's when you really know the feature. You're not going to necessarily agree with other editors' tastes, but there is a reason why all of us, many of whom have never met in person or worked together, often arrive at the same conclusions on many topics (eg. don't edit nests) from Sydney, Australia to New York City.


www.derekmok.com

"Nests are a lot more taxing on the system, especially if you start razoring them."

i think those days are gone, thankfully.
that's the razoring part i'm talking about.

used to be that when razoring a nest, FCP would see that as TWO complete copies of the nest,
and the project file size would start to bloat.
but i've done this myself in recent years and all has been fine.

the project had ("has", actually, as we keep going back into it) 5 edit sequences about 15-20 minutes each,
adding up to 90 minutes.

i needed to apply a global de-interlace effect so (as Strypes has mentioned) i nested the edit sequences in a master sequence (in a new project).

however, De-Interlace isn't that global (as i have mentioned elsewhere, i think) and there isn't one solution to everything,
hence the blading.
(oh, and the film just keeps getting re-cut)

anyway the size of the project containing the nested sequences has stayed mercifully small.


nick

Thanks so much Jeff, Strypes, Nick & Derek, (in order of reply), for all your help, and for sharing your knowledge.

I am sure I will be back... But, better than before!

All The Best,
Richard

> "Nests are a lot more taxing on the system, especially if you start razoring them."
> I think those days are gone, thankfully.

Could also be because modern systems are a lot more juiced. I'm pretty sure the added load is still there, but it's a lot easier to handle on many machines.


www.derekmok.com

>My 53 minute project itself with multiple nested sequences, is only 30mb. Can you elaborate a
>little bit on this too please?

If you duplicate sequences whenever you start an edit (usually I duplicate the sequence with a date stamp), and you have something like 40 nests in that sequence, the project size will start exploding. I'm not sure if it still happens in FCP 7. In FCP 6, you'll end up with an unworkable project around 300 MBs and an "out of memory" message in no time.


>Or, is there an agreement here that in general practice, if I edit in sub sequences, before quitting
>FCP it is better that I should copy and paste just the clips into the main timeline, rather than
>leave the nests?

If you ask me, yes.



www.strypesinpost.com