ProRes HQ Footage Looks Dark

I'm converting HD footage to ProRes HQ using Compressor and the result is footage that looks strikingly darker:

HD footage, under FCP browser the compressor is listed as "None"


1/2 original, 1/2 ProRes HQ


ProRes HQ


I did a Google search and didn't find an exact solution, but saw a lot of mention about Apple's Gamma issues. So following some suggestions, I went into Quicktime 7 Preferences and checked "Enable Final Cut Studio color compatibility". In Compressor, I customized the Apple ProRes HQ preset Video Setting>Gamma Correction from "Automatic" to "None".

Any solutions for this issue? I also noticed the ProRes HQ footage lines are jaggy around curves.

My specs:
Mac Pro Octo 2.8ghz
Mac OS 10.6.3
16GB RAM
Apple 23" Cinema HD monitor
Color Profile: Cinema HD
FCP 7.0
Compressor 3.5


Thanks,
Alex

Is the source RGB? Where did it come from?

He said the source footage was in "None" codec, so yeah -- RGB.


www.derekmok.com

Now, let me make a few assumptions (I'll be happy to be proven wrong. Seriously.) First. You received a big bag of footage that was created in a separate machine. The guy doing it is monitoring on a computer screen maybe on a PC, and has no clue what a color profile is, and everyone expects the softwares to just "get it".

The truth is, think again. Between your animator and his computer, they both don't know what the monitor is doing to the image. The monitor probably doesn't know either, because it has not been calibrated to a probe. Your animator doesn't know what his computer is doing to the footage either, and the animation software doesn't know where the footage is going to once it is done. When FCP gets the footage, it doesn't know where the footage comes from. So everyone guesses. And lemme quote that thought from "Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels" on this....

Assumption is the mother of all f*ck ups.

Now, your guess is as good as mine what the color should look like.

What exactly is FCP guessing?

When you import from an RGB source, the software (and Quicktime) has to make an assumption on the color profile, then compensate from that to the color space you are working in. In your case, you are converting to HD, which conforms to a color space of Rec. 709, with a gamma of 1/2.2, and your properly calibrated monitor will display the image with a 2.2 gamma curve, leaving you with a linear response to light, provided your footage was acquired from a linear light source.

What FCP will do, is assume that your RGB footage is created with a gamma of 1.8, because the Mac until recent history has always displayed to a gamma of 1.8. From there, it will compensate to shift that 1.8 gamma curve into a 2.2 gamma curve, effectively "brightening" your footage up a little bit, so your footage will look "the same" as when you created it in your design software to when it is finally displayed on TV which has a gamma response that is exactly the inverse of video gamma.

When you switch gamma conversion to "none", it assumes that the footage was created in 2.2, and will not touch it on conversion. Between the two halves of your center image, the one on the left isn't what your animator was seeing on his computer, since no one knows what he saw, but rather, it is the Mac thinking "hey, it's RGB at 1.8!", while the one on the right, is that RGB 1.8 gamma converted to Rec 709 so it looks okay on TV. Not that I will trust the viewer window in Compressor for color accuracy or artifacts.

What gamma space did your footage originate from? If your animator was working on a PC, it is likely to target a display gamma of between 2 to 2.2. The software may have made a couple of assumptions along the way (my guess is as good as yours here). If your animator was working on a Mac (before Snow Leopard) and the graphics was indeed created for a gamma of 1.8, it will assume you are converting your graphics for broadcast, so it compensates for the TV gamma, so your footage will not look washed out on TV.

So you need to check with your animation guy. If both of you are in doubt, and he works on a PC, set gamma to "none". And assume that you have made the right assumption.



www.strypesinpost.com

As an animator in 3ds Max, I have my PC set up for gamm, which in my case
is 1.56. I know that when I go to FCP, if I don't like the gamma that QT chooses I can
go and change to a custom gamma setting (of 1.56).

This allows a perfect match.

However, it is very important that regardless of the animation package
that
a) gamma correction is on
b) gamma output on save file is set
c) YOUR screen is set up correctly for gamma


Just some additional thoughts from the world of uncompressed RGB tiffs!

>if I don't like the gamma that QT chooses I can
>go and change to a custom gamma setting (of 1.56)

That option does not exist for ProRes conversion in Compressor. There is "auto", which assumes gamma at 1.8 and compensates for it (kind of dumb to call it "auto" when it only does one thing), and "none", which assumes a 2.2 source.

FCP lets you select your source gamma setting.



www.strypesinpost.com

FCP, I thought he was talking about but I see it was Compressor..woops.

(don't reply to messages before full coffee drank at 9 a.m EDT) <:

What I was trying to allude to in my message is that all animation packages
on Mac, PC etc worth it allow you to set up the gamma for display and output
to TIFF, TGA etc. I have used this feature since inception and I suggest that
other animators should use it to avoid issues with gamma shifts in say
programs like Apple Compressor <:



strypes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >if I don't like the gamma that QT chooses I can
> >go and change to a custom gamma setting (of
> 1.56)
>
> That option does not exist for ProRes conversion
> in Compressor. There is "auto", which assumes
> gamma at 1.8 and compensates for it (kind of dumb
> to call it "auto" when it only does one thing),
> and "none", which assumes a 2.2 source.
>
> FCP lets you select your source gamma setting.

First of all, thank you Strypes for the incredibly detailed and informative post!

I'm working in a studio full of PC's. They don't even know what a gamma space is :-p So what is the solution? Even if I set gamma space to automatic the footage looks darker. Same result if I set to "none" What am I doing wrong and how to fix it? I'm reviewing this on a 23" Apple Cinema HD monitor, not an NTSC monitor because we don't have them.

Thank you!

>the footage looks darker

That is not the essential question. The two halves of the Compressor viewer do not tell you anything you need to know about gamma settings or the transcoding quality. The essential question is- do the transcodes look darker than on the animator's screen?



www.strypesinpost.com

Quote

I'm working in a studio full of PC's. They don't even know what a gamma space is.

That's unacceptable. I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but it is. We're not talking about some obscure, nerdy, highly technical nuance of production that most people will never notice. We're talking about one of the most fundamental aspects of ? well, images, really. Your people need to be educated. Maybe not the 3D artists, so much, but the TDs who support them and wrangle the pipeline absolutely need to know what gamma means. It's required for the job.

And if you're planning to respond by saying you don't have TDs, you do. You just don't know it yet. Somebody's doing the job of the pipeline TD, even if he or she doesn't carry that job title. The question is whether that person is doing the job well. And how's this for a chilling thought: If you can't identify the person in the shop who's wearing the pipeline-TD hat ? that person may well be you.

Now, this is not something to panic about. If you found a hundred people in the industry and asked them if they'd ever found themselves in a role for which they weren't entirely prepared, eighty five of them would say yes, and the other fifteen would lie. So if that person is you, and you're feeling out of your depth, relax. It's all gonna be fine.

To answer your question, the solution is to get control over your delivery format first. Are you rendering for eventual broadcast? Are you going out to film? Are you delivering over the Internet? Once you can answer that question, you know what characteristics your output product needs to have ? color space, response curve, bit depth and so on. And once you know that, you can make your pipeline fit it. One thing that stands out to me here is that you're taking RGB source material ? the "none" codec is 8-bit RGB ? and converting it to ProRes HQ, which is a 10-bit 422 YUV format ? and yet you say you have no broadcast monitors in the house. At least one mistake is being made in there somewhere. If you're delivering for broadcast, you simply must have a broadcast monitor, period, end of discussion. If you're not delivering for broadcast, you shouldn't be using YUV as an intermediate. And really, there's no excuse for getting 8-bit frames out of your render farm anyway, regardless of your delivery specs.

You might be annoyed with me right now, thinking "All I want is to know which checkbox to click to make this work, and this jerk is telling me to rethink the whole world." That'd be understandable. But instead, think of it this way: Right now you're experiencing an inconvenience that's caused by at least one (and maybe more) underlying problem. So this is a great opportunity to get in there, find the root cause and fix it. If you just drop a workaround in place, you're going to keep having problems like this one which require more workarounds, and eventually your workarounds will interact in such a way that they themselves cause all new problems, which require workarounds of their own, and so on, and so on. If you just have to get this one shot out and then you're changing careers to become a crab fisherman or something, then rock out with your workaround out. But if you plan to be doing this for a while, find and fix the real problem. You'll save yourself loads of time in the long run.

OK Strypes, I will do another output test. I did do an output with Gamma to automatic and also none and the result seemed the same, but I should try again because maybe there was a screw-up in there somewhere.

Jeff, I completely agree with you and I hate to say it but I'm wearing the TD hat on this project. The reason being... I'm working in a studio in China, nuff said :-p Given your advice, I will ask them for an NTSC/PAL capable reference monitor. Of course, I'll be lucky if I get a used PAL TV set that even works. We are rendering for eventual broadcast in NTSC and PAL territories.

Thanks guys!

i was having a similar problem recently.

files i was getting back from a VFX guy working in AE could look darker on some systems.

a PARTIAL solution was found in the QuickTime preference, General tab:
"Enable FInal Cut Studio colour compatibility"

a little back-story now.
what was happening was that the vfx fles would come to me, and i'd put them into FCP and cut them into the shot.
these were 6 minute long shots with a second or two of vfx, and we were doing temp, speculative vfx,
so we only working on the relevant sections.

in FCP the shots looked fine.
when we exported a QT movie for a viewing, the VFX sections popped.
they got darker.
and this is in the EXPORT, mind you, after everything had been made into one format.
weird.

if i ticked the "FCS Color Compatibility" box in QT player, all was ok.
but the problem would still be there on any system that DIDN'T have that box ticked.
(for instance i was watching the film though at the sound editor's studio and the shots popped again)

anyway, i don't know if that will hep you, as it doest get to the root of the problem,
but it seemed slightly relevant.


nick

In the video world, it is pretty simple, everything is set for you to monitor at 2.2.



In the graphics and in the film world, gamma could be anything. This is how it works in Adobe After Effects:

Assign color profile to your input file-> LUT to correct colors to project working space if required (eg. correct HD footage to linear light, or IEC 1966 profile to HD, etc.)-> on monitoring apply LUT (or monitor calibration) to correct color space from project working space so you see true colors -> on export, you add an LUT to correct project working space to output format (eg. film, SD or HD, etc..) so your viewer sees intended colors.

When you are monitoring video, you always monitor with a broadcast monitor or a TV. If you are monitoring film, you always monitor with the appropriate LUT.


>a PARTIAL solution was found in the QuickTime preference, General tab:
>"Enable FInal Cut Studio colour compatibility"

Seriously, I don't understand what Apple is doing to color profiles. According to Apple, FCP bypasses the monitor calibration profile, so when you turn on that FCP color compatibility option, certain clips will ignore the monitor calibration setting just like in FCP.


>when we exported a QT movie for a viewing, the VFX sections popped.

They should look exactly the same as when you rendered the shot. You're supposed to set gamma settings when you interpret the footage. FCP's default is "source", which is 1.8 and it corrects to 2.2. If you set it to 2.2, it does no correction.



www.strypesinpost.com