Scan lines during pans

Was wondering if it's normal for FCP to show scan lines mostly during pans. While I watch the HD footage the scan lines are distracting. Is there any fix for this problem?



My specs:
Mac Pro Octo 2.8ghz
Mac OS 10.6.3
16GB RAM
Apple 23" Cinema HD monitor
Color Profile: Cinema HD
FCP 7.0


Thanks,
Alex

I've noticed this while working viewing the material on the computer monitor, try burning off a short sequence to dvd then viewing it on a tv, those lines did not appear on the dvd version in my case . . . perhaps it's just a monitor-viewing issue?

I see the same problems all the time with our Game Capture. I like to call it "frame tearing". It's when the game plays back at a frame rate that the capture device cannot handle...especially (usually) around spots of action. I just sent my Art Director back to recapture some footage that had "tears" in it. He has to adjust the frame rate that the console outputs. Pain in the arse.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

>Was wondering if it's normal for FCP to show scan lines mostly during pans. While I watch the HD
>footage the scan lines are distracting.

Well, you're not monitoring on a broadcast monitor. Your computer monitor probably displays at 60 Hz. Your footage in China, goes at 50 Hz. That problem will probably go away when you monitor on a broadcast monitor.



www.strypesinpost.com

Like Joe said, the example you posted isn't interlacing but frame tearing. It could be in the source footage or just be how you are monitoring it.


-Andrew

How does one check how many Hz on the monitor? I went into System Preferences>Color (Cinema HD)>Open Profile and see this:



We're outputting in NTSC 30p footage, which should be 60Hz, right? I see these lines on a 2nd Apple Cinema HD monitor. We have a Kona 3 card, but I know nothing about how that was setup.

Thanks!

Don't waste time on this. What you're seeing is a totally natural consequence of the fact that your computer monitor isn't sync'd to a vertical retrace clock, like a broadcast monitor would be.

The direct answer to your question is yes, this is normal.

Agree. Frame tearing as a result of your monitoring setup, probably not a problem with the footage at all. Did you get those guys to buy you a broadcast monitor yet?

Disagree with the monitor setup scenario. In my case, it is the footage that is the cause. We had to recapture the footage with v-sync activated on the game console and the tearing goes away. V-sync stabilizes the frame rate to match the capture device (in this case, a Ki Pro @ 720p / 59.94 fps / ProRes).

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I've only seen it in gaming - and it's usually a cheap computer / monitor setup that can't handle the graphics without tearing. Same setup on a better computer/monitor, no probs.

The tearing is not just the monitoring...edited footage with tears is then laid off with the tears on the tape and it shows up on regular SD and HDTVs as well as online. It's not just a poor graphics card.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Hey Gang,

Long time reader, first time poster. And naturally I'm posting because I need help. Always, right?

I'm doing game capture for a job and having the same issue as the above post with screen tearing. Here's my setup:

Running game off of PC partition via Bootcamp (MacPro dual quad-core 2.26GHz with 6GB RAM). Video output via Radeon 5770 DVI connection, though a DVI-to-HDMI cable, input through a Matrox MXO2 into another MacPro (dual quad-core 2.26GHz with 16GB RAM). Capturing in FCP7 to "Matrox MXO2 - Apple ProRes 422 1080i 59.94 48kHz."

Other nuggets of info:

- The game developer instructed me to edit a batch file for the game and add a "-vsync" command line. That removed the tearing, but had to drop the frame rate to do so, resulting in a stuttering image. This was with the default NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 card. Thinking the card was the limiting factor, we upgraded to the Radeon 5770. While the picture was markedly better, the tearing continued with the new card.

- The video output resolution is 1920x1080 at 60Hz.

- My device control preset in FCP is "Matrox MXO2 - Panasonic RS-422 29.97 fps."

From what I've read here, the tearing stems from mis-matched refresh/frame rates. Could it be that I need to change the device control preset from 29.97fps to 59.94fps? I don't think that is the problem, as (if I'm correct) I'm capturing the footage to an interlaced format, 29.97 frames per second would be 59.94 fields per second/Hz, yes?

Okay, I think that's everything. If there's any other info I can provide to help you all out, please just let me know. As it goes, I guess the key needed to launch the game expired last night, so I can't do any testing today. In the meantime, I thought I would get your input on the matter. If/When I get this issue resolved, I'll be sure to post the solution(s) for future reference.

Thanks for your thoughts on this issue. Furthermore, thanks for being a great source of info...I've learned tons reading these forums during lunch breaks!


-Chris

Are you delivering for the web or broadcast?

Chris,

Is there a reason you have chosen not to use a screen capture utility? It seems a bit convoluted and needlessly complicated doing what you've described.
(Of course, I could be missing something subtle here.)

For Windows, I can only recommend Camtasia as a screen recording utility. There may be some others that work as well as Camtasia, or better. I have heard that Fraps and ZD Soft Screen Recorder work well with game captures.

For example, I have done several computer screen recordings for training/tutorials, documentaries, and narrative projects on Mac OS X, using ScreenFlow and iShowU.

As far as the setup you've described goes, wouldn't you want to use a progressive capture format since computer display signals are inherently progressive (rather than interlaced)?


-Dave

(This and the previous two posts should probably be split off into a new topic/thread... moderators?)

Final Cut Pro without a third party card can display BOTH fields of interlaced video when the Canvas is set to 100 percent. In all other percentages it displays progressive. I use this for a quick-n-dirty check of a deinterlace when the braodcast monitor isn't fired up.

To quickly see the Canvas with both fields, just hold the H key with the Canvas active, then play. (Works in Viewer window as well.)

And someday soon, interlaced video will... just...go away.

- Loren

Today's FCP 7 keytip:
Play from Playhead to Out Mark with Shift-P !

Your Final Cut Studio KeyGuide? Power Pack.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

I'm nor on FCP these days, so I can't check out what that shortcut does exactly, but I was under the impression that FCP will display both fields at a scale factor of 100% (combing), but if scaled, it will display only one of 2 fields. Not sure if I missed a feature here.



www.strypesinpost.com

Thanks for the input, everyone. I should get that game key this morning and then continue working out a solution. I'm downloading camtasia and fraps now to see how those work. I'll also try a progressive capture format as well.

The end result is for the web.

Thanks again for the suggestions thus far, and I'll keep you apprised to things here.

Thanks again for the input. I tried the Fraps application with decent results, but the image quality wasn't as sharp as I was getting before...well, sharp except for the tearing that is.

So I hooked up my DVI to HDMI cable and tried capturing again in FCP7, and got this screen:



As you can see, all the blacks are this neon green color, and the image I'm trying to capture isn't filling the L+C screen (although it may be hard to tell from this image). My output setting is 1920x1080 as are my capture settings 1920x1080, and the aspect ratio is correct in the image, just not scaled up enough. I can live with a slightly smaller image (although its obviously not ideal) but the green, and sometimes bright pink color filling the screen is obviously no good.

Any ideas out there? I feel like I'm missing something obvious, but am mentally worn thin on this project and can't think of it. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks again!

If i'm not mistaken, output from your graphics card is RGB (or R'G'B'), which is not the same as Y'CbCr,
which is what the MXO2 may be expecting.

You may drive a different device control setting, etc. It's hard to diagnose without having the same gear.
I'm sure others will have much better input (pun not intended)...



-Dave

Quote
Loren Miller
To quickly see the Canvas with both fields, just hold the H key with the Canvas active, then play. (Works in Viewer window as well.

Quote
strypes
I'm nor on FCP these days, so I can't check out what that shortcut does exactly, but I was under the impression that FCP will display both fields at a scale factor of 100% (combing), but if scaled, it will display only one of 2 fields. Not sure if I missed a feature here.

It's a cool little shortcut. Came in very handy just today. Thanks Loren.
Strypes: It makes the canvas or viewer go to 100% and makes the canvas window fit it perfectly, no border. Interestingly enough, if 100% is bigger than your monitor can display it will make it 50%.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

[ if 100% is bigger than your monitor can display it will make it 50%.]

Do you get the combing?

- Loren

Today's FCP 7 keytip:
Play from Playhead to Out Mark with Shift-P !

Your Final Cut Studio KeyGuide? Power Pack.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

Quote
Loren Miller
Do you get the combing?

Don't know. When I found that out I wasn't dealing with an interlacing issue. I was just showing off your cool little shortcut to someone I am training. She has a portable edit kit with an HV30, a new 7D and one of those Zoom-type recorders AND a willingness to learn.
I would think that at 50% one would still be seeing an approximation of pixels so interlacing wouldn't be represented properly.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

[ if 100% is bigger than your monitor can display it will make it 50%.]
Do you get the combing?

no. got to be 100%

anther way of seeing interlace combing in FCP is to set video playback to Digital CInema Desktop Preview - Raw.
this also shows the image at 100% size,
so "underscaned" if you have Standard Def footage,
possible under or over scan of HD depending on your Desktop monitor frame-size.


nick

Nice, Nick!

- Loren

Today's FCP 7 keytip:
Play from Playhead to Out Mark with Shift-P !

Your Final Cut Studio KeyGuide? Power Pack.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com