Charging clients fees

I have been a professional working editor for many years, currently I work in television. I most recently started to do some outside projects ie. webisodes/reels and shorts to mix it up creatively. My biggest flaw is that I low ball myself and wanted to get an idea of what people are charging for gigs like this. I'd appreciate anyones input.

You charge what you are worth. How good are you? Do you have any awards? Accolades?

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I have a Promax award...and yes, I am very good. it's translating that into a fee that always gets me mentally gridlocked. an hourly fee for me I feel would exhaust some of my potential gigs.

Best to scope out your local market -- check what area production houses charge to outside clients per hour for an edit suite and editor -- in DC it can range from 75 to 300 an hour depending on the toys and editor's professional level.

Are you a preditor (producer/editor) can you do it all? -- nimble with After Effects, Graphics? -- can you write and edit? -- can they leave you alone and wait for you deliver magic at the other end?

All these factors help you create your price.

If you are a portable editor (everything on your laptop/will travel) that's worth a premium to your client for you to bring your studio to them. Are you a hired gun using someone else's gear? -- then slide your fee on down to the lower end of the spectrum.

The more value you bring to the project - the more magic they think/know you can perform - the higher the hourly fee.

You can "offset" the sticker shock for clients by saying -- my studio and editor fee is x per hour - that include editing gear/graphics/sound mixing/color correction AND the person editing -- When they see how much goes into it (hey you have to amortize and pay off your gear) they don't think they're paying YOU more than they make and the resentment factor goes away.

Don't get caught in the the "blanket price for the project trap." Be specific -- set price for ingest/log/organize -- set price for first cut -- and one or two fixes -- meter starts running again after that.

Hope that helps

Andy-
thanks man...great things to think about, you really drove home a few elements for me. I tend to get caught in the creative excitement of projects and then screw myself with the blanket price...I then usually feel angry at some point in the process and have no one to blame but myself. thanks again, your perspective helped a lot. all the best my friend.

1. What is the size of your market?

places like LA, NY, FL are huge markets. A freelancer can charge anywhere from 1500 - 8k for a 30s - 1m commercial. You should price 3 competitors one that does work you think is awful but they have clients, a moderately large studio, and a middle of the road studio.

ask them an estimate based on a 30s spot with all shots in 1 locations and build a ficticious script for them to look at. I consider the 30s spot to a basis for every market.
If the the Large studio says 4500. | the middle studio says 2500 | the cheapo says 1000 | then i might go for something between 2k low end and 4k highend.

2. Do not tell a potential client the hourly rate unless they are already use to how the industry works and you are sure that they have at least 10k to spend on the projects.

I deal with 20 - 40 potential clients a week to get 8-10 contracts a month. When you say hourly to a client you have just said "" i have no idea what its gonna cost ya but it wont be over 750k."" To them they start thinking 5 -100 grand because they normally have no idea what it takes to create the image.
So instead of hrly have a set price for a particular level of work with a specific range of parameters.

I.E.
Basic 30s - 1500.
3hrs filming
1hr set-up (ingestion and such)
6hrs editing
2.5hr gfx (simple tag slides, logo reveals, a star fly out)
1.5hr color ( rgb balance, luma, no grade)
30m broadcast prep.

so in this case 1500 = 110-ish per hr. if they add a v/o then you make 85-ish an hour.

You should explain to the client that this is based on no cranes, actors, or intensive gfx. Have a web page that shows the difference.
tell them, " It will be average talent) amount for each actor and X for they particulars.

take into account the size of the company also.
I.E.
Uncle Peggy's BBQ / 1 location / 6 employees / 450k gross yearly revenue / pays the 1500 basic
Cook Fast Food / 10 locations / 55 employees / 3.5mil gross yearly revenue / pays the 5000. intermediate ( with added features like including 1-2 actors and more intensive graphics ....)

Consider the size of their marketing plan. local (+0%), regional (+10%) or national(+25%).

i could go on with this for pages but these suggestions would be a good start. If you would like i could send you a the section of my sales training manual that deals with accessing clients and pricing. just pm me.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

chubby Wrote:
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> an hourly fee for me I
> feel would exhaust some of my potential gigs.

Is that a bad thing? The clients who demand you do it for a pittance are normally the ones you want to avoid anyway.

My software:
Pro Maintenance Tools - Tools to keep Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Pro X, Avid Media Composer and Adobe Premiere Pro running smoothly and fix problems when they arise
Pro Media Tools - Edit QuickTime chapters and metadata, detect gamma shifts, edit markers, watch renders and more
More tools...

very true...i know that, it's just getting to that comfort level of letting gigs go. but as you said, they're probably not worth it anyway and so my concern has certainly diminished through the advice i have received here so far...thanks for sharing Jon, I appreciate it.

There's some good advice...and some not-so-good advice here and you will get plenty more of both. I can only tell you about me and what I suggest.

I am pretty emotional about this topic because I know people gotta make money and eat...but undercutting your rate hurts not only yourself and your credibility, but your market colleagues.

First let me say that there is nothing wrong with "Blanket" (flat) rate projects. I do them all the time. CLIENTS LOVE THEM because they know there is not a "meter" running on them 24/7. Some projects I can finish in a few hours that an hourly rate would have killed any profit. I include 3 revisions at no charge - after that, I charge $125 per hour (which keeps clients from making revisions ). You just have to know what the job entails and what it is worth to you and your time. Quick turnarounds require a larger rate as you will tell them you will be working through the night to get their project done at the highest quality possible.

Your market definitely dictates. Shop around facilities / suite rates / editor rates. The more you know - the more you charge. Straight cutters in my market (little old Florida) make a lot less than those that have Motion Design / Compositing / 3D chops. Their stock is that much higher. I have been in Post Production in this small market (Florida) professionally for 12 years. It took many years (about half that time) to establish an acceptable rate for myself as I would rather not work than undercut my rate. I have turned down more work than I have gotten. Once people find out you are CHEAP, they come out of the woodwork and you as a professional will alienate yourself from colleagues because a cheap worker pulls cheap clients away from those that should be commanding a fair rate. Clients are notoriously cheap - saving money is their #1 priority. YOUR JOB is to CONVINCE THEM that the quality they will receive from you is WORTH THE PRICE. Sure they can go elsewhere and get it for less, but will they get the same quality? A lot of my freelance stuff is FIXING what another freelancer did. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

I like to think of "setting a rate" like this = It's like selling your house. If the comparables in your neighborhood are $250,000 and you sell yours for $125,000, you bring down the value of all the homes in that neighborhood.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Quote
Jon
Is that a bad thing? The clients who demand you do it for a pittance are normally the ones you want to avoid anyway

I have been an evangelist on this topic since i join this forum.

Thats not the only way to look at it. I don't want cheapo clients and i will turn down mostly anything under a certain dollar amount. However, as an editor knowing what i should be paid and what could get paid is not always the deciding variable.

There are 3 main types of clients; The Educated, The Best Budgeters and The Cheapo
The hardest to distinguish between is the Best Budgeters & Cheapo.

Best Budgeters:
These are folks that want a nice video but their budget doesn't allow for 5k+ productions.

Cheapos:
these are folks who want video at a cheap price so that they do not feel as though they have spent a lot of money and they don't feel the pinch. Some of them just want to see if you will take the discounted fee and want you to create a full price product.

You can deal with a Cheapo because their goal is not a good product. Their goal is to get a @#$%& commercial for 500USD.

The Best Budgeters normally start out at about 1000. as their budget, which is not far from a decent budget for a local commercial. Thats their starting point and they are normally able to fluctuate by 25 - 75%. You can gauge this by dealing discussing the ideas and finding a line of conversation that excites the client within that idea. If a client is excited about the idea thats about 40-50% more you can get. Now you are at say 1350. Then the question is, do i want to get the 1350. or am i gonna get $0.00 because they are short 150.
In a freelance world you have no set salary, so these type of deals are normally taken.

There are 5x the clients like that, than there are 5k+ clients. Pittance is not what i would call these clients budgets. They will come to you at least twice a year for the 1st 2 years. And if you can establish a working trust with them you can get their production value up to a higher fee, as long as what you have done for them has impacted their cause by a noticeable amount.

Its hard for a salaried editor to see this if that salary has been there for 5+ years.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

All of the above is good advice.

When I re-did my kitchen, I did most of the work myself but outsourced the plumbing. He said he had been told ages ago that you should expect to win 1/3 of the jobs you bid. He said if you were winning 100% of the jobs you bid, you were way underpriced. I have actually learned a lot about the freelance video biz from the people I have had come and work on my house. I find that the same things I want from someone working on my house (clean, polite, dressed nice, on time, under promise, over perform) are the same things my clients want from me.

great comparison...thank you mike. all very true.

Great points Mike.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

J. corbett-
it is tough to get your head around it as a salary editor. thanks for the 3 class breakdown. definitely very helpful as I figure out my position in quoting new possible gigs. and Mike-hearing the idea that you'll win 1/3 of your bids is also enlightening to me...I am now really putting my blueprint under a microscope so I can stand apart when pitching myself to clients.

I want to append that the scenarios i am speaking of is very local. like mom and pop.

Quick Trip had over 400 locations and they are a local chain of convenient stores. Thats are big biz to me and they get premium pricing.
but a place like Kim's Retro Fashions would start at a basic rate.

i base the rate on the companies price points and annual gross which you can get from a lead source or demographics company. I sorta base the price on a case by case basis. My pricing is based on particular attributes of the company that i am dealing with. (Basic, Standard, or premium clients)

I also i wanted to say that i complete agree with Joe. Although it may not be well received, it was joe that said something in a post years ago that made me stop disrespecting the work i am capable of with lower rates. I started the previous post earlier this morning but got distracted and posted much later.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

But beware the "just one more change" client -- put it in writing -- blanket price for x edits and x changes -- meter starts after that -- and have them sign it. Can't tell you how many clients do things by committee and tell you "this is the final round of changes" only to get a half dozen more "oh we forgot to run it by this guy" changes.

We had one client - Major Corporation -- that never ran any concept by their head boss till the video was done -- and then the head boss hated it -- and said we need to start from scratch (everyone else signed off up and down the line "love it - great - keep up the great work" except the guy that mattered.) That was a disaster for his underlings...and because we had a solid no more changes contract -- we ended up making more dough

The market certainly dictates, not at J. Corbett's figures, though. I can't imagine how you pay a camera crew, actors, talent agencies, directors, producers, offline editors, Smoke and Flame artists, sound mixing, music, colorists, transportation, equipment, location and studio rental, etc... at those rates, even in Malaysia. But you have different tiers.

I'm with Jon. If your clients are not willing to pay a decent valuation for you, they are not worth keeping. And as Andy mentioned, make sure it is all in there so you get paid for everything you do, including unnecessary delays should you wait months while they sojourn for an extended discussion to the Bahamas with the rest of the UN committee. I have a clause that forces a percentage payment should the project exceed the expected delivery deadline, as I know of short projects that have been on the shelf for over a year, and I don't want to be a storage facility.


>Are you a preditor (producer/editor) can you do it all?

This is the thing I don't get. If I do a sound mix as an pro audio engineer, I would sound mix in a good facility- properly configured rooms with good equipment, so everything will sound nice and sweet afterwards. That costs money. Same goes for color correction. Same goes for the pros in each area of work, who will add their specialized experience and vision into the project- eg. design people come up with a good design, the editors work to tell the visual story, the online guys ensure quality and good finishing, etc... I'm not sure how many one man teams can do that. And if you are good at offline editing, and you can tell a story that really works, make sure you charge for that.

That said, nothing ticks me off more than having the audio mix come back and hearing the exact same whooshes that I put in and nothing more, except that it is now a little out of phase. C'mon, give me sound design, work the magic, please. I don't give the audio guy omf at 48/24 with all the source audio with a 2 pop and a white flash at 00:02:00 and a reference video at half rez so he does levels only. I want to hear an audio mix that can help the mind "see". So if you charge pro rates for visual effects or audio mix, make sure it comes back bloody pro.

In short, know what you can deliver, and charge for it.



www.strypesinpost.com

Quote
strypes
The market certainly dictates, not at J. Corbett's figures, though. I can't imagine how you pay a camera crew, actors, talent agencies, directors, producers, offline editors, Smoke and Flame artists, sound mixing, music, colorists, transportation, equipment, location and studio rental, etc... at those rates, even in Malaysia.

DEBATED.....

Respectfully, That is the corp in your head strypes. I am a Preditor. I have been for every year i have been on this forum plus. I am not talking in theory i am talking from actual experience that is presently happening everyday and has for 8 years.

You automatically go to who you have to pay to do this or that. Why? What do you do when the budget is not there and the opportunity is?
A Preditor thinks in terms of what i can do myself. When they find something they can not they try to pay someone to do it or study it and get advice until they can.

I own the cameras, the 3 edit bays, and i have a 20x25x10 room in my basement thats used for a mini studio.
I think in the scenario i laid out it was clear what that 1500. payed for. I also have access to rent a raw 7000sqft room with 25ft ceilings 200./day. Yes, its a lucky situation but i feel no guilt in taking advantage of it.

I.E.
Basic 30s - 1500.
3hrs filming -------------> i can pay 50 per hr and get someone from a small network to film it. 100 per hr for a cnn cam man with 5 years experience. I dont even have to use him cause i could film it myself. (for basic - standard clients depending on scope)

1hr set-up (ingestion and such) ----------------> capture faster than real time 2nd assistant does it. paid weekly for 25 hrs of miscellaneous work. ( wouldn't need him if i didn't have so many per month.)

6hrs editing -----------------> I do that.

2.5hr gfx (simple tag slides, logo reveals, a star fly out) -----------> I do that also.

1.5hr color ( rgb balance, luma, no grade) ------------------------> any 4yr editor that has been to broadcast a few times can do this. You have scopes that make it real easy to see whats happening. I took a class on it. Though i would prefer to use a pro-grader for some looks.

If they need actors the price goes up. There is a charge for the pro v/o. 1500. (thats an average for BASIC CLIENTS)
If they do need Smoke, Flame, C4D, premium actors, audio engineers, or colorist for grades... then they already qualify as PREMIUM CLIENTS, and you could add an extra zero before the decimal as an opener.

Buy a car... say a honda accord and choose between LX and EX. Shop Panasonic and choose between a hpx170, hpx500 and the hpx3000. Get services from my PH and choose from basic, standard and premium.

Respectfully, Preditors are not constrained by corporate structure. We dont have to stay in one discipline for years before we begin to add to our skill sets. That what i think the downfall of the huge studio is. Its like viewing the earth from the tenth floor. Yeah you see a lot but you know you cant see it all, so the world seems to big to ingest.
However, a preditor is viewing earth from a satellite. We can see the entire globe.

If i were in a edit bay authorized to only do offline cuts. I would go crazy. Not because i think its in any way menial or non-creative but because i started out on the tenth floor (doing 1-4 things) and then road on a plane 2years latter. Now i think the tenth floor is not as wide a view.

If you didn't have the corp what would you do? .............. quit or become a preditor?

Quote
strypes
This is the thing I don't get. If I do a sound mix as an pro audio engineer, I would sound mix in a good facility- properly configured rooms with good equipment, so everything will sound nice and sweet afterwards. That costs money. Same goes for color correction. Same goes for the pros in each area of work, who will add their specialized experience and vision into the project- eg. design people come up with a good design, the editors work to tell the visual story, the online guys ensure quality and good finishing, etc... I'm not sure how many one man teams can do that. And if you are good at offline editing, and you can tell a story that really works, make sure you charge for that.

Trust me i know that having all of the parts in the chain be specialized is great and results in the highest possible quality. This Catholic Church project i am on has the budget for all that you mentioned though some parts i am not gonna trust to anyone else. (story is one of them)
However, does this mean that the guy with 1500. is not entitle to what his 1500 will buy? All clients do not have 30+k to drop on a doc or a spot, and i know there are plenty of preditors here that has done work based on a budget that is not what they wanted but enough to do xyz. Its expected in the job.

also
This is the thing I don't get. If I do a sound mix as an pro audio engineer, I would sound mix in a good facility- properly configured rooms with good equipment, so everything will sound nice and sweet afterwards

Not many people have the 100k to buy a full geek'ed studio. They may not have the money to rent one @ 50 - 350/hr. But if they have an Mbox they can do a decent job, if they have the skill and knowledge.
If there was no corp behind you how would you have gotten all of that amazing knowledge you have? You would have had to buy your own stuff, Find a way to draw clients and upgrade when you could. The rest is building your value to the point that you can get Ken Burns type money.

Speaking on absolute excellent quality the chain of specialists would be the best route but based on lower budgets or lower overhead mutli-faceted preditors are trending. Both philosophies should be respected. One is not better than the other they are just differently executed and require 2 different frames of mind.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

With great respect to all the thoughtful and carefully crafted comments in this thread, can I suggest that the ultimate answer to this question might be found here:

[www.archive.org]

Mike

Lmao...awesome Mike ...that is great - perfect. Nobody has all the answers and I would be wary of someone that claims they do. Every situation is different.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I love the guy calculating the budget based on the prattle of the client. Feels so familiar.

All the best,

Tom

excellant way to cap this thread!

Glad to hear you liked it !

This is a bit OT, but here's another hilarious '60s Calvin offering...

[www.archive.org]

Mike

Perfecto. right on the money. <-------- pun

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

>Respectfully, That is the corp in your head strypes.

I don't work for a corp. Essentially, I look up to works that I admire, and they can be shot with Barbie dolls for actors ("Superstar: The Story of Karen Carpenter" by Todd Haynes), or they can be done for a lot of money. Can your satellite view of the world deliver a film that can knock my socks off? That is the million dollar question for me. And most of the films that I think are well cut, are usually done by a team of specialists.



www.strypesinpost.com

I agree. The best films cost a lot of money. I can see that. I admire the high-end work also.

I guess i am more of a "whats possible from this point" person. I see a need with a budget that makes it possible for a decent outcome. It may not be enough to hire The Cave Men or Nia Long, or get a fully staffed crew but it can be done. There are good actresses, colorist, camera, 3d graphics people out there that do a nice job and... there are small 2-5 man operations that do quality work also. Some can take 5k and create a miracle.

A 1500 - 4k budget is enough to create an effective commercial that will bring that client more business and for a Preditor that creates client loyalty. The client is making more money which means he can spend 3k - 7500 on the next one with us.
35k created "Super Size Me", less than that created " Blair Witch", and then theres Juno and Slum Dog Millionaire.....ect. All of these had less than truly needed. OR was it enough to make it happen at an expectable level of quality.

I learned a long time ago that a skill is a hobby until someone pays for it. and a great career, is when someone pays you to do your hobby consistently. So if you are trying to break out into a side business that may one day be your main business you better get ready to make concessions on the rate you thought you were suppose to get, until you brand yourself.

Otherwise you will always be "Fidna" get more clients instead of having a career. (Fidna is Southeastern US for 'About to')

I know that you know most of this but maybe you forgot the 1st & 2nd chapter after reading the whole series. I really don't think my perspective out of step with the norm. But norm is relative also.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"