Capturing Apple Pro Res 422 Proxy

Is there a way to capture HDV tapes to Apple Pro Res 422 Proxy?

I can't seem to create an HDV-Apple Pro Res 422 Proxy setting under the Capture Presets tab in the Audio/Video Settings.

Am I stuck capturing Pro Res 422 then transcoding it to Pro Res 422 Proxy?

-- Jeff

FCP 7.0.3
Mac OS X 10.6.7
Processor 2 x 3GHz Quad Core Intel Xeon
Ram 5GB
HDV Deck Sony GV-HD700

You're right, only 422 Standard and HQ. If you set the sequence to 422 Proxy, and edit in that. I don't know. Does that cut your file size down in some way?

Unfortunately changing the Sequence Preset in the A/V Settings to 422 Proxy doesn't work. I still get the standard 422 file.

I just discovered something else...

I did a test and transcoded some Pro Res 422 clips to 422 Proxy through Compressor. All the transcoded clips lost their timecode. Each clip starts over at 00:00:00:00. Is there a way to transcode with Compressor without loosing the timecode? Or should I transcode with Media Manager?

As you can tell, I'm new to transcoding.

-- Jeff

Compressor should work, but as you've found out it doesn't always work.
Media Manger will do the trick.

but hang on, don't you lose TC when you capture HDV as ProRes?
(i haven't done that)

what are you trying to do?
maybe you should just capture as HDV, and edit in a ProRes Sequence?


nick

Quote
but hang on, don't you lose TC when you capture HDV as ProRes?

I capture HDV as ProRes a few times a week. I haven't seen where you lose TC capturing HDV as ProRes.

Quote
maybe you should just capture as HDV, and edit in a ProRes Sequence?

That might be the way to go if you are losing TC.

Quote

I capture HDV as ProRes a few times a week. I haven't seen where you lose TC capturing HDV as ProRes.

ok, my mistake.

still im wondering why the need to transcode HDV to Proxy, which is an off-line codec only.
why not just work with the HDV?


nick

Thanks guys for the replies.

I'm only losing timecode when I'm transcoding to Proxy using Compressor from Pro Res 422 standard. But I don't lose the timecode when transcoding thru Media Manager.

I guess I could just capture it as HDV and edit it that codec or a Pro Res codec but I'm trying this approach for a few reasons. First one being that I really don't like the Conforming Video with the HDV and it just seems to tax my processor a lot more in play back. The other reason is that I'm trying to learn more about the different Pro Res codecs and how they work in my workflow. I've been using the standard Pro Res since it was introduced and I really like the quality and how the real time effects seem to work without dropped frames during playback. But the size issue really causes problems sometimes. The last reason is probably just an anal retentive one --- I like to edit in a sequence that matches the settings of my captured clip.

Speaking of the Pro Res codecs, does anyone know of any good, in-depth books or websites on the subject? Perhaps I'm in the minority and not as many people use the Pro Res codecs as I thought.

Thanks again for all your feedback.

-- Jeff

Weird. You should be able to keep timecode in Compressor. Does the captured ProRes clips have timecode?

One more thing. If you want to transcode to proxy, capture the clips as HDV, then transcode that to proxy.

There was a discussion on prores recently. It's on one of the epic threads on page one in the forum. My take on it is to use ProRes HQ where possible, especially if you plan to roundtrip to different softwares, and use ProRes or ProRes LT when you do not require the quality and are short on drive space. Proxy is an offline codec, great for cutting in trains, planes and busses. I actually find the ProRes file sizes quite reasonable when you bring into consideration the fact you are working in HD and storage is reasonably affordable these days. I would use ProRes LT to work with large amounts of consumer formats like avchd.

Apple has a white paper on ProRes available.



www.strypesinpost.com

i believe that when you edit HDV in a ProRes timeline, you loose the boring "Conforming" process.

the conform process depends on your system.
last year i came on-board a feature-length doc that was HDV edited in HDV timelines.
we never had the "Conform" wait on our exports.
that was a MacPro with a decent amount of RAM. sorry i cant be more specific, but it wasn't my system


Proxy is an "off-line" codec,
so using that means you're pretty much obliged to go back and re-capture at a higher quality,
OR reconnect to your ProRes422 files if you still have them handy.
your call, of course.



nick

Nick brings up a good point. If you're planning on going back and uprezzing this project (after capturing to Proxy), the last thing you want to do is capture via firewire. You're going to want to slit your wrists from all of the timecode screw-ups that Firewire introduces.

I would recommend renting a Sony 1500A (it has deck control) and capturing with HD-SDI through a Kona card or Blackmagic card. That way, your timecode will remain intact when you go to do your on-line.

If you capture at full rez HDV or Pro Res, then firewire is acceptable, but I think it will look better if you capture HD-SDI.

Good points, except that there is little need to offline/online with HDV. You will end up having to deal with more problems, probably just as much if not more than if you captured HDV and rendered it out as ProRes.



www.strypesinpost.com

I always seem to get more stair-stepping/interlacing artifacts when capturing via firewire. That's why I won't do it anymore if I can avoid it.

and if you DO want to shoot HDV and off-line in a low-res format,
you could very easily capture as DV, using the deck or cameras in-built down-convert.

Pro: you get to use DV start/Stop Detect, putting a marker on every new shot. i love that.

Con: working at a different frame size to your final can be a real headache when it comes time to on-line.

this con outweighs the pro in my experience.

im MY experience (limited to the one project), using a decent system, there is very little disadvantage to editing with HDV natively in an HDV timeline.
(we had zero problems on the feature i cut last year)

your experience is different, probably due to your system.
i'd suggest you try cutting your HDV in a ProRes timeline,
see how that behaves.

if you are converting to a flavour of Prores, then be aware of the limitations of Proxy.
as usual a lot depends on what you need to do with this footage. is it destined for Broadcast, DVD, or the web?


nick

I'm with all these guys. Why proxy? HDV file sizes are very small to begin with given the kind of storage we have access to now. Going to proxy introduces a whole new level of hurt later when you need to put the 'real' footage back in place.

If you want to go to ProRes, what about LT? That's small and non long GOP, and you wouldn't need to reconnect anything at the end.

WOW! Great feedback from all. Thank you very, very much everyone.

Based on all the comments, I'm just going to stick to Pro Res standard.

The main reason I asked about Proxy was because I wanted to try the offline/online workflow just so I could learn it in case I were ever asked to do a project this way. Which, without really doing it, I learned a lot about it from all this feedback.

Bottom line . . . I've learned that when shooting HDV there really is no point in capturing offline when you can edit in an HDV sequence and export out to a higher res. -- Am I getting that right?

Speaking of outputting in a higher res, do I any quality if I capture in HDV and export it to Pro Res standard or Pro Res (HQ)?

Another question about the Proxy or LT formats . . . Are these really meant for non-tape footage, like SD cards or P2 cards, etc., since it appears you can't really capture tape in these formats?

Thanks again for everyone's input, I really appreciate it.

-- Jeff

" . . . do I any quality if I capture . . ."

I meant to say, do I lose any quality if I capture . . .

-- Jeff

When you capture and edit in HDV, you are capturing native, which is essentially the compression that is used on tape. Firewire merely transfers the 1s and 0s from the tape to your editing storage, wrapping it in the quicktime wrapper in the process. Your footage never gets any better than the compression it was shot on. The reason I say export your edit as ProRes, is to take into account any effects that may be added in the editing process, when you render to ProRes, your footage suffers less degradation, as ProRes is less lossy than HDV. More than that, ProRes is a more robust format with better support between machines.

The ProRes flavors are not used only for tape formats. In the HD world, many formats (H.264, RED, Avc codecs) are edited as an intermediate format, which means, you transcode before you edit because the compression schemes makes it very computationally intensive to work with. A higher quality codec results in less quality loss across the workflow, however, as Jude mentioned in another thread, when you work with large amounts of footage, editing in an extremely high quality codec can be very storage intensive. In those cases, you may choose to use the traditional offline/online process (ProRes Proxy) or you switch to a lower quality codec (ProRes SQ or LT).

HDV, like XDCAM EX can be edited natively or transcoded. Many of us transcode before we edit, to get rid of niggling long GOP issues- the exporting time is quite similar to having to render everything when you export, and if you added effects, long GOP formats render more slowly. This really stings on a long form project. Also, many people have encountered more frequent crashes when dealing with long GOP formats. Transcoding to ProRes usually takes care of this and speeds up rendering time when it really matters- in the hour before you submit your work.



www.strypesinpost.com

Thank you, Strypes. I am seriously being schooled here.

-- Jeff

Whenever I capture HDV tape, the first thing I do is transcode each clip to Pro Res SQ or LT. In the beginning I hated the time wasted with the HDV conforming issue and that is never a problem when working in Pro Res.
Steve

steve-sharksdelight

I've got a related question: I have to edit a movie from HDV tapes, and i have to end up with an online in ProRes 422 (because i'm combining it with tapeless footage). Since I have a space problem, my plan is to capture the tapes both as HDV and as ProRes 422 proxy and edit the offline with the poxy files. My question is - how do i create the online version? How do i trace the HDV files that need to be retransferred to ProRes 422? and will the TC of the ProRes 422 be identical to the ProRes proxy files?

Thanks!

I won't suggest doing offline/online with HDV unless you have a deck with SDI and RS422. Offline/online with a Firewire deck control is unnecessarily problematic.



www.strypesinpost.com